Decisions, decisions....

[Il BuonO]

I read your post. You can say as much as you want "I am not trying to say,... but what I am saying is..." as many times as you want. Your post clearly implied an opinion that Buck is the problem and maybe he should go. Don't shy away from it, own it. I just very much disagree with it. Sorry that you take disagreement so poorly. I'm still failing to see how this team is better off without with Buck. You have offered no proof whatsoever.

What I have a problem with is someone who misrepresents what I say. You never quote anything from the OP. What I ask is a question hoping to stimulate a discussion over expectations which people have for him as a manager. For me it's better than a .500 team. He's done better as a manager in the past and I expect at least that level of performance for the Orioles.

Okay, this started out to be a far more reactionary thread about BS and his poor managing because of decisions he made in tonights game, but lets just keep it to that. Or not. To me, it was inexcusable to bring in a kid you just brought up in that situation, but then to leave him in when it was clear he had nothing? It was clear, right? I would have pulled him after the first walk. Well, that presupposes that I put him in to begin with. Ugh....

I want to rant about other things that bug me about Buck, but I know he's also working with a limited talent pool. The lineup for instance is not how I see it benefitting us the most, but I know many of the posters have said he really doesn't have many choices.

After his contract is up do you want him back? Do you think Buck deserves an extension? I don't think playing .500 ball is a great accomplishment. If he gets us to the playoffs that gets him some time. If he doesn't next year I think PA has a decision.

I included the OP to point out a couple things. In the first paragraph I express my frustration about tonights game. In the second I mention the lineup, but clearly state that Buck has been limited here because of our roster. And in the last paragraph I ask peoples opinion while stating my own. Hardly over the top.

[Let's go O's!]

I didn't see the game (other than the Jones HR, caught that at dinner) only the box score, but as far as Buck managing issues, what about his not believing in the save rule? Did Johnson have to come in? Was Patton effective enough that he should have stayed in for the 9th?

I am very much pro-Buck, think his two second half winning seasons with little talent says something, think that this year's record says a lot more, but I for one have never liked that the better pitcher (if that is the case) at that moment always seems has to come out for the "closer" in the 9th. Just wondering if anyone feels someone else should have pitched the 9th....

Patton was able to escape a little bit of trouble in the previous inning he worked but overall I thought he pitched well. There was many options other than Johnson that Buck could have gone to (Left Patton in, Ayala, Strop, O'day, or maybe even Gregg), but considering how solid JJ has been for most of the year I think he was the obvious choice. He just didn't get the job done

[El Gordo]

Because managers aren't held to standards. Thats moronic. Again, no hyperbole there. Just wondering out loud. Apparently it's touched a nerve.

The OP suggested the owner should consider firing the manager if he doesn't get a 69 W team to the playoffs the following year. If that's what you mean by holding a manager to standards, that's a stupid, idiotic, and hyperbolic standard, IMO. That's not the same as saying Buck managed poorly tonight. I'd say he did do that.

[murph]

Patton was able to escape a little bit of trouble in the previous inning he worked but overall I thought he pitched well. There was many options other than Johnson that Buck could have gone to (Left Patton in' date=' Ayala, Strop, O'day, or maybe even Gregg), but considering how solid JJ has been for most of the year I think he was the obvious choice. He just didn't get the job done[/quote']

Thanks for the info. on how Patton pitched. And I understand Johnson is the best option, just obvious he did not have it tonight and I do wonder if Buck would ever consider a non-closer for the closer role when it makes sense...

[Greg]

This should be the lineup everynight

1.Avery LF

2.Markakis RF

3.Davis 1B

4.Jones CF

5.Thome DH

6.Hardy SS

7.Wieters C

8.Betemit or Reynolds 3B who ever is hot play

9.Flaherty 2B

[Il BuonO]

I read your post. You can say as much as you want "I am not trying to say,... but what I am saying is..." as many times as you want. Your post clearly implied an opinion that Buck is the problem and maybe he should go. Don't shy away from it, own it. I just very much disagree with it. Sorry that you take disagreement so poorly. I'm still failing to see how this team is better off without with Buck. You have offered no proof whatsoever.

Do you see the ?? You know what that is, right? They are 2 seperate questions, correct?

Did you ever take a basic grammar course? Just because you have a question mark between two sentences does not change the thought. You followed one word, not a sentence with another phrase directly after the word.

At least make it well thought out.

[mark_beckens]

What I have a problem with is someone who misrepresents what I say. You never quote anything from the OP. What I ask is a question hoping to stimulate a discussion over expectations which people have for him as a manager. For me it's better than a .500 team. He's done better as a manager in the past and I expect at least that level of performance for the Orioles.

I included the OP to point out a couple things. In the first paragraph I express my frustration about tonights game. In the second I mention the lineup, but clearly state that Buck has been limited here because of our roster. And in the last paragraph I ask peoples opinion while stating my own. Hardly over the top.

If he gets us to the playoffs that gets him some time. If he doesn't next year I think PA has a decision.

Please make up your mind, is it Bucks fault for roster management or is he hamstrung by the roster. If he has no options, can you blame him for not making changes. I think saying he should be fired if he don't take us to the playoffs in the next two years, is wrong.

[SteveO]

Patton was able to escape a little bit of trouble in the previous inning he worked but overall I thought he pitched well. There was many options other than Johnson that Buck could have gone to (Left Patton in' date=' Ayala, Strop, O'day, or maybe even Gregg), but considering how solid JJ has been for most of the year I think he was the obvious choice. He just didn't get the job done[/quote']

I do not know who else you send out to get the save when you have a guy who has cashed in on 30/32 chances going into tonight and had not lost a game in a save opportunity. Yes he did not pitch great but its not like he was getting crushed either.

I find it absolutely laughable that people even question if Buck should come back. When I look at this roster, the holes littered throughout it and consider that we are still 4 games over .500 and in the playoff race heading into the start of August I think the guy has done an awesome job all in all. No it does not work every night but he is limited with what he has to work with comparatively, if you do not think so then your either living in lala land or just beyond unreasonable. Tell you what lets bring back Dave Trembley if you need a clinic on how to not get the most out a team.

[mark_beckens]

Did you ever take a basic grammar course? Just because you have a question mark between two sentences does not change the thought. You followed one word, not a sentence with another phrase directly after the word.

At least make it well thought out.

Nope, never got no edumacation.

[Let's go O's!]

This should be the lineup everynight

1.Avery LF

2.Markakis RF

3.Davis 1B

4.Jones CF

5.Thome DH

6.Hardy SS

7.Wieters C

8.Betemit or Reynolds 3B who ever is hot play

9.Flaherty 2B

Markakis RF

Headley 3B

Davis 1B

Jones CF

Thome DH

Hardy SS

Wieters C

Flaherty 2B

Avery LF

I made a couple small changes :thumbsup1:

[SteveO]

Please make up your mind, is it Bucks fault for roster management or his he hamstrung by the roster. If he has no options, can you blame him for not making changes. I think saying he should be fired if he don't take us to the playoffs in the next two years, is wrong.

There are some people who if you make the right move its expected and no matter what you do, if it does not work out then they know what would have been better. This is a team with TWO consistent starters all year, a half decent bullpen and maybe at best 5/9 of a lineup (considering how long Markakis was out). He has made it work and helped keep this team above water using guys that that are essentially cast offs from other organizations. The thing I like about Buck is he still expects effort and expects to win. All things considered I think the guy deserves a lot more appreciation.

[Jonesy10]

Markakis RF

Headley 3B

Davis 1B

Jones CF

Thome DH

Hardy SS

Wieters C

Flaherty 2B

Avery LF

I made a couple small changes :thumbsup1:

Victorino LF

Headley 3B

Markakis RF

Jones CF

Thome DH

Hardy SS

Davis 1B

Wieters C

Flaherty/Q 2B

[mark_beckens]

There are some people who if you make the right move its expected and no matter what you do, if it does not work out then they know what would have been better. This is a team with TWO consistent starters all year, a half decent bullpen and maybe at best 5/9 of a lineup (considering how long Markakis was out). He has made it work and helped keep this team above water using guys that that are essentially cast offs from other organizations. The thing I like about Buck is he still expects effort and expects to win. All things considered I think the guy deserves a lot more appreciation.

He's got 4 DH's in the lineup most nights, he's had to depend on Steve Pierce, Ryan Flaherty, Endy Chavez and now Omar Quintinilla because of injuries. He's had to over use Weiters cause he had no backup. You add that to what you said, the fact we're over .500 should make him a MOY candidate.

[ccbird]

You're joking, right? I hated Buck's decision to let Betemit bat right-handed with the bases loaded, but every manager makes bad decisions at times. Buck has done a great job this year overall, he ought to be a manager of the year candidate IMO.

This. Times 1000.

This times 1,000,000. Listen, I wasn't happy with Buck tonight but all managers make mistakes and have bad nights. Ultimately, the tighter the games you play the more managerial decisions impact the game. Buck has done a wonderful job this year and in general in Baltimore. This team battles, it has an attitude, a confidence since Buck got here. Clearly, there are talent issues and roster management issues that he is dealing with that ultimately can't be overcome but it's a credit that he's gotten as much as he has for as long as he has to this point. IMO, Buck gets a lot of credit for having this team battle and fight hard this year which we have done a lot. How many times in a game has this team battled back this year??? A lot. How many times this season has this team essentially been left for dead after a losing skid and everyone said the collapse is upon us, yet this team has fought back numerous times. Yes, the ship is leaking and has been for awhile but the fact that the "duct tape" has kept our heads above water for so long is a credit to Buck and these players. Now, look beyond this year to Sept of '10 and '11 when we were clearly out of races and battled teams in the thick of pennant races and more than held our own. You want to know how you know a manager still has the pulse of his team and the belief of his players??? When you realize how much Buck has gotten out of his players the last few years. Buck is a very good manager. His flaw in other stops was ultimately wearing on and losing his players. There is no sign at all that this is the case here in Baltimore. He has been a much needed leader for this organization at the big league level.

[SteveO]

He's got 4 DH's in the lineup most nights, he's had to depend on Steve Pierce, Ryan Flaherty, Endy Chavez and now Omar Quintinilla because of injuries. He's had to over use Weiters cause he had no backup. You add that to what you said, the fact we're over .500 should make him a MOY candidate.

Yup I didnt want to pile on. I also agree with ccbird's statement above. To suggest that if we don't make the playoffs he should be fired is so utterly ridiculous its not even worth discussing. Furthermore, the national media has taken notice of what he has done with a team that lacks a complete roster and depth and many agree he at least deserves consideration for MOY. Do I think that bringing in Soco was the best move....maybe not in retrospect but reality is that when your starting a 9 game stretch you might not want to have to use every decent reliever you have in game 1... its easy when looking at one game to make those kind of criticisms but Buck will be managing tomorrow as well and has to keep in mind a longer term plan than us in our armchairs do.