Decisions, decisions....

[Il BuonO]

The OP suggested the owner should consider firing the manager if he doesn't get a 69 W team to the playoffs the following year. If that's what you mean by holding a manager to standards, that's a stupid, idiotic, and hyperbolic standard, IMO. That's not the same as saying Buck managed poorly tonight. I'd say he did do that.

Do you have any standards for the manager? If not, that's stupid and idiotic. So is the assumption that this team is a "69 win team". Says who? You? They may be outperforming expectations but even Buck would tell you it's stupid to put limitations on his players.

Please make up your mind, is it Bucks fault for roster management or is he hamstrung by the roster. If he has no options, can you blame him for not making changes. I think saying he should be fired if he don't take us to the playoffs in the next two years, is wrong.

Do you know the difference between a roster and a lineup or were you absent when coach was explaining baseball theory? Actually it's not that difficult a concept, but yes they are different concepts. He's limited, but is there anyone on the board who doesn't think Hardy should have been moved out of the two hole long ago? And BTW, what does Bucks limits in dealing with the roster have to do with his team making the playoffs the following year? Quite a leap.

There are some people who if you make the right move its expected and no matter what you do, if it does not work out then they know what would have been better. This is a team with TWO consistent starters all year, a half decent bullpen and maybe at best 5/9 of a lineup (considering how long Markakis was out). He has made it work and helped keep this team above water using guys that that are essentially cast offs from other organizations. The thing I like about Buck is he still expects effort and expects to win. All things considered I think the guy deserves a lot more appreciation.

That's it. You nailed it. Well, guess what? So do I. Buck has a track record. I want him to perform to it. I don't think it's too much to ask. At the end of next year his contract is up. What I've suggested is far from extreme or idiotic. If you disagree fine, but Buck expects results from the players and he's the guy in charge. I hold him responsible if they don't perform.

Now of course, it would be nice if the FO gave him something to work with in the meantime, but again nobody is calling for his removal. I do appreciate what he's been able to do, but after 14 years of losing I won't be satisfied with just being a winning team. I want a return to championship baseball. I think Buck would tell you the same thing. If at the end of his contract they haven't reached the playoffs I think it's entirely reasonable to ask if he should be extended.

[mark_beckens]

Do you know the difference between a roster and a lineup or were you absent when coach was explaining baseball theory? Actually it's not that difficult a concept, but yes they are different concepts. He's limited, but is there anyone on the board who doesn't think Hardy should have been moved out of the two hole long ago? And BTW, what does Bucks limits in dealing with the roster have to do with his team making the playoffs the following year? Quite a leap.

Would you mind, telling me your baseball playing/coaching resume? Then we can compare it to mine!

I included the OP to point out a couple things. In the first paragraph I express my frustration about tonights game. In the second I mention the lineup, but clearly state that Buck has been limited here because of our roster. And in the last paragraph I ask peoples opinion while stating my own. Hardly over the top.

Doesn't Buck fill out the lineup, based on who is on the roster?

[El Gordo]

Do you have any standards for the manager? If not, that's stupid and idiotic. So is the assumption that this team is a "69 win team". Says who? You? They may be outperforming expectations but even Buck would tell you it's stupid to put limitations on his players.

Do you know the difference between a roster and a lineup or were you absent when coach was explaining baseball theory? Actually it's not that difficult a concept, but yes they are different concepts. He's limited, but is there anyone on the board who doesn't think Hardy should have been moved out of the two hole long ago? And BTW, what does Bucks limits in dealing with the roster have to do with his team making the playoffs the following year? Quite a leap.

That's it. You nailed it. Well, guess what? So do I. Buck has a track record. I want him to perform to it. I don't think it's too much to ask. At the end of next year his contract is up. What I've suggested is far from extreme or idiotic. If you disagree fine, but Buck expects results from the players and he's the guy in charge. I hold him responsible if they don't perform.

Now of course, it would be nice if the FO gave him something to work with in the meantime, but again nobody is calling for his removal. I do appreciate what he's been able to do, but after 14 years of losing I won't be satisfied with just being a winning team. I want a return to championship baseball. I think Buck would tell you the same thing. If at the end of his contract they haven't reached the playoffs I think it's entirely reasonable to ask if he should be extended.

"I don't think playing .500 ball is a great accomplishment. If he gets us to the playoffs that gets him some time. If he doesn't next year I think PA has a decision. " Last season this team was a 69 W team. I take it from this statement of yours that you think if this team this season is no better than .500, the owner should consider firing him. I think that's a really dumb notion. If the team ends up with another 69 W record then maybe, but a 12 W improvement, don't make me laugh.

[Il BuonO]

Please make up your mind, is it Bucks fault for roster management or is he hamstrung by the roster. If he has no options, can you blame him for not making changes. I think saying he should be fired if he don't take us to the playoffs in the next two years, is wrong.

Would you mind, telling me your baseball playing/coaching resume? Then we can compare it to mine!

Buck definitely can make changes. Whether he does or not tells me a lot. Case in point, JJ batting second. Or pulling a pitcher too soon or leaving him in too long like he did with Hammel and Chen in Seattle.

Doesn't Buck fill out the lineup, based on who is on the roster?

If you want to PM me we can go over resumes.

[mark_beckens]

In the second I mention the lineup, but clearly state that Buck has been limited here because of our roster.

YOU, said roster, that's where my post came from.

[Il BuonO]

Okay, this started out to be a far more reactionary thread about BS and his poor managing because of decisions he made in tonights game, but lets just keep it to that. Or not. To me, it was inexcusable to bring in a kid you just brought up in that situation, but then to leave him in when it was clear he had nothing? It was clear, right? I would have pulled him after the first walk. Well, that presupposes that I put him in to begin with. Ugh....

I want to rant about other things that bug me about Buck, but I know he's also working with a limited talent pool. The lineup for instance is not how I see it benefitting us the most, but I know many of the posters have said he really doesn't have many choices.

After his contract is up do you want him back? Do you think Buck deserves an extension? I don't think playing .500 ball is a great accomplishment. [i]If he gets us to the playoffs that gets him some time.[/i] If he doesn't next year I think PA has a decision.

Here's what I said above. I used italics for the middle statement so you could see the difference. They are three separate statements.

"I don't think playing .500 ball is a great accomplishment. If he gets us to the playoffs that gets him some time. If he doesn't next year I think PA has a decision. " Last season this team was a 69 W team. I take it from this statement of yours that you think if this team this season is no better than .500, the owner should consider firing him. I think that's a really dumb notion. If the team ends up with another 69 W record then maybe, but a 12 W improvement, don't make me laugh.

I didn't say that. Get your facts straight. Misquoting someone is a really dumb notion. You laughing?

[LookitsPuck]

Buck can't quite find that middle ground between leaving someone in too long, or hooking them too early.

Socolovich shouldn't have came in that situation, IMHO. We had more capable arms available, regardless of what Showalter wanted to say. You put Lindstrom there, leave him in for that out and the following inning. Maybe more if he's flying.

That said, it was a downright travesty to leave Soco in for as long as he did. He clearly didn't have any command tonight, and with an umpire who was absolutely terrible...it should have been an easier decision to go with a veteran.

This umpire tonight was just putrid. There were 2 clear cut strikes on Inge in the 9th called balls that changed the entire complexity of that inning, IMHO.

[Il BuonO]

YOU, said roster, that's where my post came from.

Thanks for clarifying, clearly your superior baseball acumen is showing.

[SteveO]

That's it. You nailed it. Well, guess what? So do I. Buck has a track record. I want him to perform to it. I don't think it's too much to ask. At the end of next year his contract is up. What I've suggested is far from extreme or idiotic. If you disagree fine, but Buck expects results from the players and he's the guy in charge. I hold him responsible if they don't perform.

Now of course, it would be nice if the FO gave him something to work with in the meantime, but again nobody is calling for his removal. I do appreciate what he's been able to do, but after 14 years of losing I won't be satisfied with just being a winning team. I want a return to championship baseball. I think Buck would tell you the same thing. If at the end of his contract they haven't reached the playoffs I think it's entirely reasonable to ask if he should be extended.

It all depends on what talent he has. If its a team that's reasonable to expect to go to the playoffs then that is a fair standard to hold him to. If its a team with holes like this one has, then expecting him to do the impossible in order to feel that he is doing an adequate job would seem hardly fair. That's just stacking the deck against him. To this point I think it is more than reasonable to say that he has gotten far more out of this team than we should have or could have expected. If you disagree thats K. I just think replacing a guy getting the most out the talent he is given, simply because he did not make the playoffs is not going to help things at all. No manager is gonna make a team that does not have playoff level talent a playoff team.

[mark_beckens]

Thanks for clarifying, clearly your superior baseball acumen is showing.

I'm not the one saying Buck should be fired, or PA should even consider it if he don't make the playoffs the next two years.

[Il BuonO]

Do you have any standards for the manager? If not, that's stupid and idiotic. So is the assumption that this team is a "69 win team". Says who? You? They may be outperforming expectations but even Buck would tell you it's stupid to put limitations on his players.

Do you know the difference between a roster and a lineup or were you absent when coach was explaining baseball theory? Actually it's not that difficult a concept, but yes they are different concepts. He's limited, but is there anyone on the board who doesn't think Hardy should have been moved out of the two hole long ago? And BTW, what does Bucks limits in dealing with the roster have to do with his team making the playoffs the following year? Quite a leap.

That's it. You nailed it. Well, guess what? So do I. Buck has a track record. I want him to perform to it. I don't think it's too much to ask. At the end of next year his contract is up. What I've suggested is far from extreme or idiotic. If you disagree fine, but Buck expects results from the players and he's the guy in charge. I hold him responsible if they don't perform.

Now of course, it would be nice if the FO gave him something to work with in the meantime, but again nobody is calling for his removal. I do appreciate what he's been able to do, but after 14 years of losing I won't be satisfied with just being a winning team. I want a return to championship baseball. I think Buck would tell you the same thing. If at the end of his contract they haven't reached the playoffs I think it's entirely reasonable to ask if he should be extended.

It all depends on what talent he has. If its a team that's reasonable to expect to go to the playoffs then that is a fair standard to hold him to. If its a team with holes like this one has, then expecting him to do the impossible in order to feel that he is doing an adequate job would seem hardly fair. That's just stacking the deck against him. To this point I think it is more than reasonable to say that he has gotten far more out of this team than we should have or could have expected. If you disagree thats K. I just think replacing a guy getting the most out the talent he is given, simply because he did not make the playoffs is not going to help things at all. No manager is gonna make a team that does not have playoff level talent a playoff team.

Well, you quoted my text but apparently you missed that part. Look, I agree he's got a stacked deck....this year. However, DD has said that PA will give him the necessary parts for a winning team. So, what then? Does he still get a pass and for how long? I like that Buck is no nonsense and he wants to bring back a winning tradition, but until he does it's a lot of talk.

[Il BuonO]

I'm not the one saying Buck should be fired, or PA should even consider it if he don't make the playoffs the next two years.

Man, turn the page. Find one time I said he should be fired.

[mark_beckens]

Man, turn the page. Find one time I said he should be fired.

It's been quoted several times, which one would you like to repost?

[Il BuonO]

I'm not the one saying Buck should be fired, or PA should even consider it if he don't make the playoffs the next two years.

Well, you quoted my text but apparently you missed that part. Look, I agree he's got a stacked deck....this year. However, DD has said that PA will give him the necessary parts for a winning team. So, what then? Does he still get a pass and for how long? I like that Buck is no nonsense and he wants to bring back a winning tradition, but until he does it's a lot of talk.

Are you related or something?

[mark_beckens]

Man, turn the page. Find one time I said he should be fired.

If he gets us to the playoffs that gets him some time. If he doesn't next year I think PA has a decision.

That is your comment?