Orioles don't like the cutter (part deuce) - Peterson speaks

[Pickles]

I'd like to think that you are correct here as the alternative is alarming -- that Bundy is not going to be allowed to use the pitch that got him where he is. But that's not how I read the quotes from Duquette and Peterson. Certainly no one would argue against the development/improvement of other pitches' date=' but why at the exclusion of what Bundy already is good at? Even during practice sessions!

You feel Peterson's track record warrants some deference. [b']I feel he needs to provide some evidence that throwing a cutter lowers pitching velocity. For whom? When[/b]?

Josh Beckett and Jon Lester for two close to home examples.

Pitchers who throw the pitch will admit as much, that you lose "feel" for your fastball at times due to throwing the cutter, and lose velocity.

[Slappy]

Peterson's been coaching in the game for 32 years and is well-known as an evidence-based approach guy. Does he really need to "justify" every little thing to the casual fans? Let the man do his job, the results will judge him.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I'd like to think that you are correct here as the alternative is alarming -- that Bundy is not going to be allowed to use the pitch that got him where he is. But that's not how I read the quotes from Duquette and Peterson. Certainly no one would argue against the development/improvement of other pitches' date=' but why at the exclusion of what Bundy already is good at? Even during practice sessions!

You feel Peterson's track record warrants some deference. I feel he needs to provide some evidence that throwing a cutter lowers pitching velocity. For whom? When?[/quote']

I've seen enough of our pitchers fail for 15 years now that the "just don't mess with guys and let them use the stuff that got them here" argument seems pretty worn. I'm ready for a new approach. If an 86-88 mph cutter that Bundy throws 10-15 times a game is "what got him where he is", then we're in really big trouble.

The reasons why they don't want him throwing it have been made pretty clear in this interview and to a lesser extent in the previous interview with DD. I'm not sure why you're asking why at this point? If you disagree, then fine. DD/Peterson have done research/analysis on the topic. Sounds like a lot of scouts and others professionals agree, at least to some extent about the use and effectiveness of the cutter. Among other issues with the cutter, I recall the article from DD stating that a cutter thrown at FB speed had little to do with degradation of velocity, but cutters thrown at less than FB speed could cause loss in velocity. This is actually the case with Bundy's cutter. They certainly don't need to provide us their detailed evidence/research, nor would I expect them to provide any such evidence/research to the general public.

[NewMarketSean]

Peterson's been coaching in the game for 32 years and is well-known as an evidence-based approach guy. Does he really need to "justify" every little thing to the casual fans? Let the man do his job, the results will judge him.

Agreed.

If this had happened in the last few years, I'd be critical of it. But since it's RP, a respected baseball mind throughout the industry, and the Orioles are winning, I can give them the benefit of the doubt.

If anything, it's refreshing to see there is an organizational philosophy on developing pitchers.

[oriolekid]

Also Felix Hernandez's velocity drop had to come from somewhere. 24 y/o's simply don't lose 3 mph on their velocity over two seasons. But of course, he loves to throw a cutter. Imagine the pitcher he'd be if he still threw 94, and not 91.

[Can_of_corn]

Also Felix Hernandez's velocity drop had to come from somewhere. 24 y/o's simply don't lose 3 mph on their velocity over two seasons. But of course, he loves to throw a cutter. Imagine the pitcher he'd be if he still threw 94, and not 91.

He might even throw a perfect game!

[Frobby]

I'd like to think that you are correct here as the alternative is alarming -- that Bundy is not going to be allowed to use the pitch that got him where he is. But that's not how I read the quotes from Duquette and Peterson. Certainly no one would argue against the development/improvement of other pitches' date=' but why at the exclusion of what Bundy already is good at? Even during practice sessions!

You feel Peterson's track record warrants some deference. I feel he needs to provide some evidence that throwing a cutter lowers pitching velocity. For whom? When?[/quote']

I echo SurhoffRules' post about Bundy's cutter not "getting him where he is." As to whether he will be allowed to use it in the future, I'm relying on this:

Is there a chance that when Dylan Bundy gets to the majors that he can start using that pitch again?

"Everything is a possibility. But if Dylan develops the way we hope he develops, he might not need a cutter to be effective."

That, and the comments about using the pitch too much as a crutch, lead me to think the O's might allow Bundy to use the cutter as a fourth pitch down the road.

As to you wanting Peterson to provide "evidence" that the cutter affects velocity, this was an interview, not a court proceeding. I seriously doubt Peterson doesn't have evidence to back up his statement, and I certainly had heard, long before I ever heard Dylan Bundy's name, that overuse of the cutter can affect velocity on a straight fastball.

[SurhoffRules]

Also Felix Hernandez's velocity drop had to come from somewhere. 24 y/o's simply don't lose 3 mph on their velocity over two seasons. But of course, he loves to throw a cutter. Imagine the pitcher he'd be if he still threw 94, and not 91.

Pretty sure that's a slider and not a cutter, coming in about 8 mph lower and with significant drop verse his FB. Felix has shouldered an extraordinary workload for such a young pitcher in this era, going from 69 innings as 17 yo to 149 as an 18 yo then basically tossing 190 or more in the pros ever year since then. He's right in the "injury nexus" for young pitchers. I think that there may be more likely candidates than a pitch that he may or may not be actually throwing in this case. At any rate, there certainly are more variables to the equation.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Also Felix Hernandez's velocity drop had to come from somewhere. 24 y/o's simply don't lose 3 mph on their velocity over two seasons. But of course, he loves to throw a cutter. Imagine the pitcher he'd be if he still threw 94, and not 91.

That's interesting. I thought FH had started thowing more splitters, not cutters, but it appears you are right. Of course his cutters are thrown at FB speed, not 86-88 mph like Bundy's. That gets us in to the "is it really a cutter or a 4S FB with a different grip" semantics.

[The Wedge]

My question is: if it's his best pitch, why make him drop it in favor of the 4 seamer? Wouldn't it make more sense to make it the only fastball he has, ala Rivera? Then you don't have to worry about losing velocity off the 4 seamer, and you keep his best pitch. He can still be fastball/curve/change, the fastball is just a cutter.

However, I do understand it from the organizational stand point.

[Can_of_corn]

My question is: if it's his best pitch, why make him drop it in favor of the 4 seamer? Wouldn't it make more sense to make it the only fastball he has, ala Rivera? Then you don't have to worry about losing velocity off the 4 seamer, and you keep his best pitch. He can still be fastball/curve/change, the fastball is just a cutter.

However, I do understand it from the organizational stand point.

Doesn't he also throw a 2 seamer?

[The Wedge]

Does he? That would change things a tad.

[CA-ORIOLE]

My question is: if it's his best pitch, why make him drop it in favor of the 4 seamer? Wouldn't it make more sense to make it the only fastball he has, ala Rivera? Then you don't have to worry about losing velocity off the 4 seamer, and you keep his best pitch. He can still be fastball/curve/change, the fastball is just a cutter.

However, I do understand it from the organizational stand point.

Since his cutter is only 86-88, I don't think it's viewed as a good FB replacement.

[SurhoffRules]

That's interesting. I thought FH had started thowing more splitters, not cutters, but it appears you are right. Of course his cutters are thrown at FB speed, not 86-88 mph like Bundy's. That gets us in to the "is it really a cutter or a 4S FB with a different grip" semantics.

Pitch F/X has him throwing 21 cutters his entire career but Fangraphs has 4% and 13% the last two years. Hooray inconsistent pitch classification!

[Can_of_corn]

Does he? That would change things a tad.

I am asking not telling.