Orioles don't like the cutter (part deuce) - Peterson speaks

[El Gordo]

Any young pitcher is going to do whatever he can to make the show as soon as he can. If that means relying on his cutter to mow down MiL hitters so be it. And maybe throwing it when he gets up will help him succeed short term. But if in the process, he loses speed off his FB, and command of his Curve and Change, he is't staying around very long as a SP. If the cutter is his best pitch I doubt he will forget how to throw it in a year or two. It's a pitch that experienced SP add as they begin to lose velocity and movement on the FB. I don't know of any pitching coach who won't say that fast ball command is the most important thing to develop in a young pitcher. Everything Peterson says makes sense to me.

[Since'54]

Josh Beckett and Jon Lester for two close to home examples.

Pitchers who throw the pitch will admit as much, that you lose "feel" for your fastball at times due to throwing the cutter, and lose velocity.

I don't think Beckett and Lester are strong arguments for you. I live near Boston and get to enjoy continuous analysis in the papers, on TV and radio, and around the water cooler as to what's wrong with Red Sox pitching. There's certainly no consensus about these two and the question of the effects of a cutter have been raised but that is certainly an outlier position among analysts -- professional and armchair. There's more interest in why Beckett's cutter has become a hittable pitch.

As for the general question of monkeying with the approach of a pitcher who has been successful through his career, the Red Sox treatment of Daisuke Matsuzaka may be instructive. After investing $100 million in the Japanese star, the Sox eventually undertook to change everything about his approach. They decided he needed to eliminate certain pitches from his repertoire,they changed his warm-up and scheduled work between starts. Results not good to date. Is that because of team meddling? We will never know.

[Frobby]

Great stuff, vatech. I'm sold!

[byrdz]

The entire industry had us winning only 69 games this year, tops.

Sarcasm dudes. This was a quote by Law about DD.

[SilentJames]

Sarcasm dudes. This was a quote by Law about DD.

Law is such a douche, I swear.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[foxfield]

Well we haven't yet. Don't count your chickens. Our Pythag is about to reach critical mass and there will be a seismic readjustment coming.

I am sure there is at least some sarcasm here, but in case there is not, I will bet you whatever you want to bet that the O's win more than 69 games. :thumbsup1:

[rmt64]

Just felt the need to bump this after coming across an interesting little FanGraphs article that touches on this very topic.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/do-cutters-kill-fastball-velocity/

[byrdz]

Just felt the need to bump this after coming across an interesting little FanGraphs article that touches on this very topic.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/do-cutters-kill-fastball-velocity/

There’s little evidence of accelerated velocity loss among the veterans that use either form of the cutter. There is still a chance that the pitch isn’t good for the development of a young pitcher — certainly the Orioles are not alone in that opinion — and that the veterans that have turned to the pitch are better prepared, and therefore avoid velocity loss.

So the Orioles aren't being laughed at by the entire industry as Law says?

[OFFNY]

Just felt the need to bump this after coming across an interesting little FanGraphs article that touches on this very topic.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/do-cutters-kill-fastball-velocity/

O

[Tony-OH]

I talked with a well-respected American League scout last night, you know, the kind of guy who has been employed by a professional major league club for over 20 years, not some shock-cyber journalist "scout." He believes that the cutter should not be used by young developing pitchers, but could be introduced at the AAA level by a more "mature" arm (even possibly at the AA level if a pitcher is more "mature"). He said the pitch "definitely" adds stress to the arm and shoulder and pitchers take on that inherent risk by using the pitch, especially too early in their development. He sees no reason for a pitcher like Dylan Bundy to use that pitch on a consistent basis yet, but believes it could be something he uses with effect in a few years. BTW, this scout has no affiliation with the Orioles or DD.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I talked with a well-respected American League scout last night, you know, the kind of guy who has been employed by a professional major league club for over 20 years, not some shock-cyber journalist shock "scout." He believes that the cutter should not be used by young developing pitchers, but could be introduced at the AAA level by a more "mature" arm (even possibly at the AA level if a pitcher is more "mature"). He said the pitch "definitely" adds stress to the arm and shoulder and pitchers take on that inherent risk by using the pitch, especially too early in their development. He sees no reason for a pitcher like Dylan Bundy to use that pitch on a consistent basis yet, but believes it could be something he uses with effect in a few years. BTW, this scout has no affiliation with the Orioles or DD.

COC posted this in the MLB section. One of the key points in the article was the difference in cutters (Grip or Load). The Orioles appear to have less issues with the grip cutter as long as it's not thrown too much. A grip cutter is thrown at FB speed (what Tillman and Hunter throw), but not ok with the Load cutter (leveraged at lower speed). Apparently Bundy throws the load cutter. So even after development, it's my guess that they won't want him using it in the majors.

[isestrex]

The more I hear, the more Peterson and DD sound closer in from "waaaaay far out there".

I think the real question now is just when they'll be returning Bundy's "best pitch" since all organizations have differing preferences. Peterson said they want him to be Verlander (plus fastball, plus curveball, good change up). I would guess that at whatever level he fully demonstrates he's on top of those pitches, that's when they'll let him re-integrate the cutter. Maybe Bowie, maybe Norfolk, maybe Baltimore.

[The Wedge]

The more I hear, the more Peterson and DD sound closer in from "waaaaay far out there".

I think the real question now is just when they'll be returning Bundy's "best pitch" since all organizations have differing preferences. Peterson said they want him to be Verlander (plus fastball, plus curveball, good change up). I would guess that at whatever level he fully demonstrates he's on top of those pitches, that's when they'll let him re-integrate the cutter. Maybe Bowie, maybe Norfolk, maybe Baltimore.

Yeah, it seems they're more of a case of "first to really put it out there for general consumption" than crazy crackpot theorists.

[Pickles]

Jason Parks from BP chimes in:

Parks

Putting the cutter on the shelf forces the other secondary offerings into the sequence. The cutter is a bread winning pitch, a monster that would ruin hitters at the minor league level. Bundy is better served by strengthening his weaknesses in the minors rather than dominate with his existing strengths. When you put the total package together, the cutter will re-emerge. I'm not the biggest fan of young arms throwing cutters anyway. I prefer to see a heavy dose of 4-seam FBs to build that arm strength and help establish command.

Parks

As with everything in development, the specifics depend on the specifics of the player. Bundy's arm is special, and his cutter is special, and he would crush minor league hitters with it. I haven't spoken to anybody that thought putting the cutter on the shelf was laughable; just the opposite, in fact. It makes sense from a developmental point of view, especially if Bundy used the cutter as a pacifier pitch, an offering of comfort that he would defer to over other offerings.

The point of the minors is to work on your deficiencies, not put up the best numbers or get the most hype or get to the majors as fast as possible. It's not a race, and rushing the process can have severe consequences. I dont see how limiting the use of the cutter in the name of secondary pitch development is something worth laughing at. The Baltimore Orioles are tasked with developing Bundy, not the members of the media or members of other organizations. They know the player, they have their plan, and everything else comes from an obstructed view from the bleachers.

[Larry18]

What was the level of competition when the cutter was decided to be his "best pitch"? High School? Cause it wasn't when he was a pro.