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Every time I watch Posey hit...


Pedro Cerrano

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I don't really care how he compares to other catchers, I care about the numbers he was supposed to put up versus the numbers he is putting up. And yes I realize that this goes against the main premise of this thread (comparing him to Posey) but Posey's grand slam is what inspired the thread.

The entire premise of your thread is that about how you fantasize about having another catcher (Posey) instead of Wieters, and now, you don't care how Wieters compares to other catchers ?

Sorry, but you're coming across as disingenuous.

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Don't forget the Cards have Yadier Molina, also better than our guy.

Wieters is better than he was at the same age. Molina is 29 and has been in the league for 8 1/2 years. He only really broke out offensively last year.

And I thought we weren't comparing catchers anyway.

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I don't really care how he compares to other catchers, I care about the numbers he was supposed to put up versus the numbers he is putting up. And yes I realize that this goes against the main premise of this thread (comparing him to Posey) but Posey's grand slam is what inspired the thread.

Well, the OP says he is "pretty lousy with the bat" and "an offensive liability," and neither of those things are true. If you want to say his offense hasn't come close to living up to expectations, I'd have no dispute with that.

I will add, though, that my expectations about his offense on draft day have probably been met, or close. It was his insane 2008 season in the minors that created the sky-high expectations. We easily got way more than we paid for. According to fangraphs, he's been worth $56.7 mm already, and $22.3 mm and $18.6 mm over the last two seasons.

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I don't think you can describe Wieters as "pretty lousy with the bat." The average OPS for an AL catcher this year was .707. Last year, .693. Wieters was at .764 (107 OPS+) and .778 (110 OPS+). He led AL catchers in RBI this year and was tied for second in HR. He is well above average offensively for a catcher, and in fact he is somewhat above average for all players regardless of position. And, of course, he is a stud defensively.

Of course he's not lousy, he's a good hitter for a catcher.

When I see Posey hit I think "Well, the Giants have a good catcher. And that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the Baltimore Orioles." I try not to grade against hype. I grade against reality. "Should" is a great thing to whine about. If you don't like reality fix it, or offer solutions, don't continually complain about how your fate sucks.

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Wieters is better than he was at the same age. Molina is 29 and has been in the league for 8 1/2 years. He only really broke out offensively last year.

And I thought we weren't comparing catchers anyway.

Yeah Molina was all glove and little hit until last year. Anyhow, I can feel the frustration given that we heard Wieters was going to be Joe Mauer with power. It just hasn't worked out that way.

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The entire premise of your thread is that about how you fantasize about having another catcher (Posey) instead of Wieters, and now, you don't care how Wieters compares to other catchers ?

Sorry, but you're coming across as disingenuous.

Wieters is better than he was at the same age. Molina is 29 and has been in the league for 8 1/2 years. He only really broke out offensively last year.

And I thought we weren't comparing catchers anyway.

I'd rather look at his bat in a vacuum but every time I talk about how he's been a "bust" offensively, the first thing others bring up are his stats versus other catchers.

And, I guess OFF once again has reading comprehension problems, because in the exact post he quotes I concede that the inspiration for this thread was Posey's grand slam, even if I'm not too into comparing Wieters to other catchers (at least when discussing whether or not he's reached his expectations).

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Well, the OP says he is "pretty lousy with the bat" and "an offensive liability," and neither of those things are true. If you want to say his offense hasn't come close to living up to expectations, I'd have no dispute with that.

I will add, though, that my expectations about his offense on draft day have probably been met, or close. It was his insane 2008 season in the minors that created the sky-high expectations. We easily got way more than we paid for. According to fangraphs, he's been worth $56.7 mm already, and $22.3 mm and $18.6 mm over the last two seasons.

This is fair. I suppose I put a lot more stock in 2008 than you do.

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What a clown statement. I think Joey Votto is better than Mark Reynolds. Should I also become a Reds' fan?:rolleyes:

Clown statement? Not really...I was exaggerating and making a point.

I'm just a Baltimore Orioles fan. I'm a fan of this team. It seems like everyone wants to nitpick and put these guys down after a bad loss or if someone, God forbid, has gone hitless in 3 or 4 games. Especially Wieters...he's a whipping boy here. If he would have hit a home run last night to win the game we wouldn't even be talking about this.

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Clown statement? Not really...I was exaggerating and making a point.

I'm just a Baltimore Orioles fan. I'm a fan of this team. It seems like everyone wants to nitpick and put these guys down after a bad loss or if someone, God forbid, has gone hitless in 3 or 4 games. Especially Wieters...he's a whipping boy here. If he would have hit a home run last night to win the game we wouldn't even be talking about this.

You should check the history here. I've long been a critic of Wieters' bat, his disappearance in this post-season just reinforces that belief.

And, as always, I hope to be proven wrong.

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I will add, though, that my expectations about his offense on draft day have probably been met, or close. It was his insane 2008 season in the minors that created the sky-high expectations. We easily got way more than we paid for. According to fangraphs, he's been worth $56.7 mm already, and $22.3 mm and $18.6 mm over the last two seasons.

I understand people think they've been lied to, the people who bought into the BP translations with the bad park factors and the misunderstandings of sample size, and thought that Wieters was guaranteed to be a 1.000 OPS guy with Johnny Bench defense. But that was just the far upper bound of an outlier projection. Don't be mad at Matt Wieters or the Orioles or God or whatever because he's merely very good and not an inner circle HOFer.

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I understand people think they've been lied to, the people who bought into the BP translations with the bad park factors and the misunderstandings of sample size, and thought that Wieters was guaranteed to be a 1.000 OPS guy with Johnny Bench defense. But that was just the far upper bound of an outlier projection. Don't be mad at Matt Wieters or the Orioles or God or whatever because he's merely very good and not an inner circle HOFer.

So you're not disappointed at all with his bat? Ignoring his defense for a minute, you're cool with him OPSing .750? Ho hum?

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I'd rather look at his bat in a vacuum but every time I talk about how he's been a "bust" offensively, the first thing others bring up are his stats versus other catchers.

Because most of us don't consider a guy a "bust" if he is above average, even if he was supposed to be great. And Wieters is above average offensively.

It is also worth noting that Wieters is much better defensively than he was ever advertised to be. He's much better than I expected defensively, not as good as I expected offensively, and in terms of overall value, maybe he is not quite as valuable as I hoped, but he's still very, very valuable. The O's are in the playoffs and he has a lot to do with it, so you'll hear no complaints from me.

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Because most of us don't consider a guy a "bust" if he is above average, even if he was supposed to be great. And Wieters is above average offensively.

It is also worth noting that Wieters is much better defensively than he was ever advertised to be. He's much better than I expected defensively, not as good as I expected offensively, and in terms of overall value, maybe he is not quite as valuable as I hoped, but he's still very, very valuable. The O's are in the playoffs and he has a lot to do with it, so you'll hear no complaints from me.

So I assume, if he keeps this up, you would not endorse eventually moving him to 1B?

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