WOW BlueJays not playing sign Melky Cabrera

[DrungoHazewood]

I was admittedly just speculating, I just think that team contains more players that I would say "not surprised" about if I heard they were caught.

- Bautista, after 2 years in TOR, comes out of no where and puts up 54 after having 59 over parts of a 5 year career

- Encarnacion, after 2 years in TOR, puts up 42 after a 7 year career where his best was 26.

I'm sure those sorta spikes happen periodically in the course of history, just seems odd they happen twice in a two year period on one team. Then they, somewhat aggressively, sign an accused PED user to a 2 yr deal?

If using illegal drugs was the key to your present and future success, would you really go out and sign one of the more blatant cheaters in recent history instead of trying to keep a low profile? It would be like a team suspected of doctoring the ball hiring Gaylord Perry as their pitching coach.

[Can_of_corn]

Maybe you're right. I'm going to be much more skeptical of teams that come out of nowhere on the strength of a huge power surge and out-of-nowhere comebacks from players thought to be toast. What's that... our beloved team couldn't be doing that? Of course.

What current Oriole player had a power surge like the two Jays in question? Only one I can think of is Roberts and well.....

McLouth in '08? I have heard plenty of rumblings about that season on this board.

[Mr Snuffleupagus]

Yes, I think they were a combination of lucky and good. It's ridiculous to think that Toronto has come up with a huge advantage in PED use and deception that nobody else can figure out.

I suppose baseball had it coming to them, but it's crazy that every time a player or a team strays just a bit from a cookie-cutter progression it's obviously because they're rampantly cheating.

But they're in Canada Drungo!! Canada!!

If using illegal drugs was the key to your present and future success, would you really go out and sign one of the more blatant cheaters in recent history instead of trying to keep a low profile? It would be like a team suspected of doctoring the ball hiring Gaylord Perry as their pitching coach.

It's exactly what you do if you want to be thinking two steps ahead of everyone else.

Hey, look, I said I was just speculating, as you said, MLB had this coming. Color me envious and jealous.

[Can_of_corn]

You're talking to a brick wall as far as Drungo and steroids. They are only guilty if they are caught and then if they are guilty it's nothing different than players taking ampetamines in the 50's or drinking a lot of coffee in the 20's. He also won't concende that it improves performance significantly. Barry Bonds just aged well.

I mostly agree with him except I think a lot of players are still using.

[Mr Snuffleupagus]

Yes, I think they were a combination of lucky and good. It's ridiculous to think that Toronto has come up with a huge advantage in PED use and deception that nobody else can figure out.

I suppose baseball had it coming to them, but it's crazy that every time a player or a team strays just a bit from a cookie-cutter progression it's obviously because they're rampantly cheating.

An interesting read.

[weams]

I saw a great special on Ben Johnson, the sprinter who won the Olympic gold and went from good runner to best in the world with the help of a good doctor. ... As for Bautista and Encarnacion, you are innocent until proven guilty. Heck of a coincidence though. lol Of course, it was explained as Dwayne Murphy the hitting coach having them hit the ball out in front of the plate. Apparently the greatest hitting coach of all time.

Canadian.

[Can_of_corn]

I'm not sure what you are agreeing with but I'm not all sanctimonius out it. I mean, Lance Armstrong cheated but so was everyone else, so I think it's a joke to strip him of his titles and medals. I just hate it when people suggest that steroids don't help SIGNIFICANTLY. I saw a great special on Ben Johnson, the sprinter who won the Olympic gold and went from good runner to best in the world with the help of a good doctor. Either let everyone cheat or do your best to keep a level field. Guys are still cheating, obviously, because the risk is worth the reward. Now, I don't think Ruth and old time players were any more pure. They would get an edge too. It's just that the stuff available at the time wasn't anywhere near as good as the stuff available today. As for Bautista and Encarnacion, you are innocent until proven guilty. Heck of a coincidence though. lol Of course, it was explained as Dwayne Murphy the hitting coach having them hit the ball out in front of the plate. Apparently the greatest hitting coach of all time.

I think that taking steroids in and of itself does not signifcantly enhance performance for the majority of users. What Bonds was doing went well beyond just taking steroids.

[weams]

I think that taking steroids in and of itself does not signifcantly enhance performance for the majority of users. What Bonds was doing went well beyond just taking steroids.

That is what Ben Johnson says. Says no matter what drugs they take, the runners since him still can't break his record.

[weams]

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Ben 9.79*

[scOtt]

Rogers has owned the Blue Jays since 2005, if they had all this money since then why haven't they been spending it??

My point was that to start quoting Rogers revenue (or how they own an entire network, country or small island), that has about 10 other business entities all ran separately under the same umbrella, is misleading as to what is available for the baseball team. The baseball portion is probably peanuts compared to revenue generated outside of that from all their other interests.

If you replace "Rogers Communications" with "Angelos", you just described our situation to a T. Except PA has much less $.

[scOtt]

Canadian.

And yet they live among us, undetected!

[weams]

And yet they live among us, undetected!

And they thought Ben was Jamaican.

[LookinUp]

And they thought Ben was Jamaican.

Everyone on that track was on steroids according to a recent ESPN report.

Also, for what it's worth, that Incarcerated Bob guy says on twitter that the Jays will sign Marcum in the next week and they also have another big trade in the works. Again, fwiw.

[DrungoHazewood]

You're talking to a brick wall as far as Drungo and steroids. They are only guilty if they are caught and then if they are guilty it's nothing different than players taking ampetamines in the 50's or drinking a lot of coffee in the 20's. He also won't concede that it improves performance significantly. Barry Bonds just aged well.

Forgive me for expecting some slight level of proof before I accuse someone of illegal activity. Or some level of proof for claims that a couple of injections turns your garden-variety journeyman into Babe Ruth. I never said they didn't improve performance, but I have serious questions about the wild claims that abound. The current standard for judgment on PED use in baseball seems to be, effectively, "I don't like the guy and he's pretty good."

And I still don't see the moral difference between the illegal drugs of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and today. The only thing separating someone who was taking horse steroids and massive quantities of amphetamines in 1968 and someone using high tech steroids today is timeline - put either player in the other era and they'd be doing whatever they could to get ahead.

[DrungoHazewood]

An interesting read.

I'm assuming that's not scaled to a per-team or per-at bat scale? I'm not going to argue that PEDs didn't increase power, but that graph looks quite similar to what you'd expect given historical offensive trends and expansion of the number of teams and players. Of course there were no .100 ISO increases from 1895-1919 because there was no power in the game at all - you could lead the league in homers with 8. And you'd expect many more increases from the 60s-on as the number of teams and players doubled over several decades.

And I'm still not sure how you'd differentiate steroid-related gains from juicing the ball. And with ball juicing there's a perfectly plausible method (ridiculously large tolerances and rules for ball manufacture) and reason (increasing offense to spur consumer demand after the '94 lockout). My hunch is there's a combination of things going on.