Future of Rays in TB in doubt?

[Tx Oriole]

I bring this up here, because this could obviously have an effect on the Orioles if TB were to leave. Ken Rothensal just said on MLB Hotstove, that the debacle in Miami, has all but guaranteed the Rays wont get a new stadium. Never thought of Miamis' situation, hurting the future of the Rays future in TB.

Sorry but I don't see any effect on the O's. If the Rays move big deal.

[Dark Helmet]

Sorry but I don't see any effect on the O's. If the Rays move big deal.

If they move to say Vegas, and leave the AL East, it doesn't affect the O's?

[Mr Snuffleupagus]

Sorry but I don't see any effect on the O's. If the Rays move big deal.

I think we'll have a balanced schedule and the elimination of divisions before the Rays leave Tampa.

[Can_of_corn]

All that article does, is show how a new stadium could be funded IF approved. No where did it say, a new stadium is guaranteed. I think you'd have a hard time convincing tax payers, to take a hit on that.

I know exactly what I linked to.

It is however, current actual information on the Ray's quest to get a new stadium.

[Dark Helmet]

I know exactly what I linked to.

It is however, current actual information on the Ray's quest to get a new stadium.

Ok, so your aware that link didn't say much of anything.

And Ken Rosenthal, just said this morning on MLB network, that according to officials, the situation in Miami has all but guaranteed the Rays won't get a new stadium in TB. That's actual current info as well. Neither speculation by Rothensal, or an article speculating on what finances would be needed to fund a stadium ( Again IFapproved) is [i]"actual"[/I] information.

[Can_of_corn]

Ok, so your aware that link didn't say much of anything.

And Ken Rosenthal, just said this morning on MLB network, that according to officials, the situation in Miami has all but guaranteed the Rays won't get a new stadium in TB. That's actual current info as well. Neither speculation by Rothensal, or an article speculating on what finances would be needed to fund a stadium ( Again IFapproved) is [i]"actual"[/I] information.

No. The article I posted is based on actual information from folks working on getting a stadium financed.

http://www.wtsp.com/assetpool/documents/121119025849_Bay%20Area%20Ballpark%20Financing%20Summary%20Short%20Form%20-%20Final.pdf

What you keep mentioning is what a talking head on TV said. A National talking head at that who is unlikely to have spent a lot of time closely examining the situation in Tampa/St Pete.

[DrungoHazewood]

MLB has kind of painted itself into a corner, illustrated by Miami and Tampa. They've set such high barriers for entry, and revenue requirements somewhere north of Kansas City for success, that they're kind of stuck when their hand-picked markets don't pan out. It's $200M for an expansion team, a taxpayer-financed stadium is pretty much a prerequisite, so when you're in, you're all in. There's no going back - you've sold the local government on the idea you're here for the looooong haul, long enough to make them willing to fork over at least half a $billion for a stadium. And even if they could get out, there's nowhere to go since the entire country is claimed as a media market by one or more existing teams.

The tradeoffs of being a monopoly, and staying a monopoly. The owners would probably have been happy splitting the national revenue pots in smaller increments, but if you have too few teams a competitor will eventually step in and might bring you down. So you have to expand, but eventually you have no more markets that are viable in your "Can't upset the Yankees" fiscal scheme.

No, I'm not sure what my point is here, except that we're probably stuck with the teams we have and where they are for a good long time.

[Ven6]

A non-issue with four pages of tit for tat. And I read it all. Ug.

[dabirds]

Northern New Jersey seems like a natural location. New Jersey doesn't have a baseball team, so I think NY teams and Philly would have trouble blocking them. All the other major sports have NJ teams. Didn't the NY Giants and Jets used to play in NJ?

USED to play in NJ?? They USED to play in NY, but both teams have played in East Rutherford, NJ for 30+ years.

NJ has trouble supporting teams, though. We lost the Nets and the Devils were on the brink of going to Tennessee and then to Brooklyn. Don't think a baseball team could survive here. You have to factor in that most residents already follow a NY or Philly team, so a new team is not a good idea.

I say move them to Vegas so I can tell my wife I am going there to see a baseball game.

[Dark Helmet]

No. The article I posted is based on actual information from folks working on getting a stadium financed.

http://www.wtsp.com/assetpool/documents/121119025849_Bay%20Area%20Ballpark%20Financing%20Summary%20Short%20Form%20-%20Final.pdf

What you keep mentioning is what a talking head on TV said. A National talking head at that who is unlikely to have spent a lot of time closely examining the situation in Tampa/St Pete.

Another link, where anyalysts crunch numbers, to try and show how a new stadium could work. Nothing saying it will. Rosenthal said he spoke to officials in Tampa. But your free to believe whoever. I really don't see a new stadium being a draw anymore then 4 years of good competetive baseball has been. Not when most of the peple there, are retired Yankee and Red Sox fans. I don't even think Tampa believes it will.

[dgroomes]

Having lived in the Tampa area for the last 8 years, I have become very familiar with the stadium issues and the financing issues in general for the Rays.

Problems with baseball in Tampa comes down to a conflagration of a lot of negative factors.

1) They put their team in a piss poor stadium that does as much as it can to create a positive fan experience (live Ray tank in center field, gourmet food for high priced, non-box seating, carnival games around the building for kids, etc.) The stadium is poorly lit, the corridors that surround the stadium look unfinished and narrow, and the need to use escalators to get to premium seating just makes for a less than premium experience. And as a non native I find it funny that some don't understand why tourists would not find it enticing to go to a dark indoor baseball game in Florida.

2) The location of the stadium is very inconvenient for the majority of the fan base. Though St. Pete is a population center, it is across the bay from Tampa (with only 3 bottlenecked bridges to use to get there in rush hour traffic). The Tampa Bay area is not as geographicly compact as other major cities. Orlando is part of the media market but is at least 2 hours driving to get to the stadium when its not rush hour.

3) There is no mass transit in Tampa, and its a hard sell to get something down here. With no mass transit, the traffic for fans from long distances discourages attendance especially with the bottleneck issues mentioned above.

4) The economy was worse down here in Tampa than most places. Tampa at the time of the recession crash was an economy driven heavily by construction and tourism. At one point the area was above 14% unemployment. On top of that, with the amount of retirees and the low cost of living/incomes in the area, there is not a whole lot of extra money rolling around. Even when a team is doing well it is hard to justify season tickets when the economy has been as bad as it has been.

5) This has been (and still in a lot of way is) a Yankees town. Stienbrenner's offices are here, there Spring Training is here, they have a minor league affiliate across the street from Raymond James. They area a team that seems to have been built for transplants from out of town (Yankees, Sox, and Os fans like me) to get a chance to see there team. The Rays fan base came along about the same time as their success did.

6) This is a fair weather pro sports town. People in Tampa, like most of Florida are deadly passionate about their college teams (Gators, Seminoles, Canes) but one or two mediocre or bad years for the Lighting or the Bucs and attendance falls off a cliff.

I think if they could find a way to buy out of their lease, move the team to a more centrally located area (Channelside section of Tampa's been my favorite, next to the Tampa Bay Times Forum), and got some infrastructure money to get some transit to the stadium to make it easy for people from outlying areas to get to the games easier, I think it might work. There are a lot of baseball fans down here but the factors above have made it difficult to solidify their loyalty and grow a consistent fan base.

Dave in Tampa

[Dark Helmet]

Having lived in the Tampa area for the last 8 years, I have become very familiar with the stadium issues and the financing issues in general for the Rays.

Problems with baseball in Tampa comes down to a conflagration of a lot of negative factors.

1) They put their team in a piss poor stadium that does as much as it can to create a positive fan experience (live Ray tank in center field, gourmet food for high priced, non-box seating, carnival games around the building for kids, etc.) The stadium is poorly lit, the corridors that surround the stadium look unfinished and narrow, and the need to use escalators to get to premium seating just makes for a less than premium experience. And as a non native I find it funny that some don't understand why tourists would not find it enticing to go to a dark indoor baseball game in Florida.

2) The location of the stadium is very inconvenient for the majority of the fan base. Though St. Pete is a population center, it is across the bay from Tampa (with only 3 bottlenecked bridges to use to get there in rush hour traffic). The Tampa Bay area is not as geographicly compact as other major cities. Orlando is part of the media market but is at least 2 hours driving to get to the stadium when its not rush hour.

3) There is no mass transit in Tampa, and its a hard sell to get something down here. With no mass transit, the traffic for fans from long distances discourages attendance especially with the bottleneck issues mentioned above.

4) The economy was worse down here in Tampa than most places. Tampa at the time of the recession crash was an economy driven heavily by construction and tourism. At one point the area was above 14% unemployment. On top of that, with the amount of retirees and the low cost of living/incomes in the area, there is not a whole lot of extra money rolling around. Even when a team is doing well it is hard to justify season tickets when the economy has been as bad as it has been.

5) This has been (and still in a lot of way is) a Yankees town. Stienbrenner's offices are here, there Spring Training is here, they have a minor league affiliate across the street from Raymond James. They area a team that seems to have been built for transplants from out of town (Yankees, Sox, and Os fans like me) to get a chance to see there team. The Rays fan base came along about the same time as their success did.

6) This is a fair weather pro sports town. People in Tampa, like most of Florida are deadly passionate about their college teams (Gators, Seminoles, Canes) but one or two mediocre or bad years for the Lighting or the Bucs and attendance falls off a cliff.

I think if they could find a way to buy out of their lease, move the team to a more centrally located area (Channelside section of Tampa's been my favorite, next to the Tampa Bay Times Forum), and got some infrastructure money to get some transit to the stadium to make it easy for people from outlying areas to get to the games easier, I think it might work. There are a lot of baseball fans down here but the factors above have made it difficult to solidify their loyalty and grow a consistent fan base.

Dave in Tampa

That's a great post. Thanks for the insight. Nice to get some actual first hand experience, for those of us who don't live in that area. I've been there once, and getting around was a nightmare. Seemed like road work/construction, at every turn too. But, that was back in 2004 I was there.

[Can_of_corn]

Another link, where anyalysts crunch numbers, to try and show how a new stadium could work. Nothing saying it will. Rosenthal said he spoke to officials in Tampa. But your free to believe whoever. I really don't see a new stadium being a draw anymore then 4 years of good competetive baseball has been. Not when most of the peple there, are retired Yankee and Red Sox fans. I don't even think Tampa believes it will.

I give up. You are just impossible to have an actual debate with. I don't think you are even vaguely interested in a debate or an actual exchange of ideas.

[Dark Helmet]

I give up. You are just impossible to have an actual debate with. I don't think you are even vaguely interested in a debate or an actual exchange of ideas.

I'm actually not trying to debate this. I just got sick of the same "Hamilton" or "Butler" or "What will DD do" topics. Just thought i'd pass along something new. You seemed to take offense to any suggestion the Rays might actually leave Tampa/St. Pete. Oh well, back to the same ol' same ol'.

[Blizzard1090]

I too have been down to Tampa several times. Dgromes pointed out the problems the Rays are facing far better then I can. I will say that unlike the Marlins owner,the Rays do truly care about baseball in FLorida...there simply isn't a market for it in that area.