Fox trying to buy MASN

[tilgaham]

The Orioles should absolutely not sell MASN. The earning potential is ridiculous. There's a reason Murdoch wants to buy YES, and FOX wants to buy MASN. 1BN is paltry.

[CA-ORIOLE]

The Orioles should absolutely not sell MASN. The earning potential is ridiculous. There's a reason Murdoch wants to buy YES, and FOX wants to buy MASN. 1BN is paltry.

Well, the main point here is that "Orioles" don't own MASN.

[Orange_Crush]

Mark Cuban would be the ideal owner. He makes his team's his babies. He wants them to succeed, and will provide them with any means neccesary to make that possible. He was interested in the Cubs, so I could see him having an interest in the Orioles.

Baltimore too small a market.

MLB doesnt want him involved. He EASILY could outbid the Ricketts.

[zxlkho]

I still don't understand why MLB doesn't like Cuban as an owner.

[apollod]

No the Orioles and Nats do not own MASN - the owners of the Orioles and Nats do. Just like the Orioles do no own Angelos' law firm. If the O's owned MASN, Forbes would value the Os at $1.5 billion.

Wrong..

There's nothing super recent on the MD Dept of Assessments and Taxation; but what is there show that the "BALTIMORE ORIOLES LIMITED PARTNERSHIP" which is in fact the LLP that owns the team (with PA as majority stakeholder/General partner) is the Managing Partner of "TCR SPORTS BROADCASTING HOLDING, LLP" which is the Managing Partner of "MID-ATLANTIC SPORTS NETWORK"

So the teams themselves do in fact own MASN (at least I'm presuming on the Nationals half; but the O's for sure own their 87% of MASN); PA only owns MASN so much in that he owns the Orioles. But if you were to buy the Baltimore Orioles outright, you'd get MASN. They're private companies, so there's only so much info available online; but there's nothing filed with the state saying that the majority of ownership in TCR or MASN has changed hands, so I'd have to assume all these filings are relatively accurate.

Info on TCR:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000337&Folio=0396&Pages=0002&Date=12%2028%202001&Ack=1000361986576027&Domain=Charter&ID=A04458733&Name=TCR%20SPORTS%20BROADCASTING%20HOLDING,%20LLP&source=1

Info on MASN:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=&Folio=&Pages=2&Date=02/12/2010&Ack=1000361999635711&Domain=Charter&ID=T00221669&Name=MID-ATLANTIC%20SPORTS%20NETWORK&source=1

And for giggles, info on The O's LLP:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000330&Folio=1688&Pages=0002&Date=12%2021%202001&Ack=1000361986516932&Domain=Charter&ID=M03712379&Name=BALTIMORE%20ORIOLES%20LIMITED%20PARTNERSHIP&source=1

You also have to take the Forbes estimates with a grain of salt.. they're doing a best guess on the data available publicly. It'd be much easier to have an idea on franchise value if they were publicly traded companies.

[Orange_Crush]

I still don't understand why MLB doesn't like Cuban as an owner.

Not hard really. Watch a Macs game. He's not a proper guy in the least. I love the guy but despite being rich he's not a quiet yuppie suit and tie kinda guy.

[tilgaham]

Wrong..

There's nothing super recent on the MD Dept of Assessments and Taxation; but what is there show that the "BALTIMORE ORIOLES LIMITED PARTNERSHIP" which is in fact the LLP that owns the team (with PA as majority stakeholder/General partner) is the Managing Partner of "TCR SPORTS BROADCASTING HOLDING, LLP" which is the Managing Partner of "MID-ATLANTIC SPORTS NETWORK"

So the teams themselves do in fact own MASN (at least I'm presuming on the Nationals half; but the O's for sure own their 87% of MASN); PA only owns MASN so much in that he owns the Orioles. But if you were to buy the Baltimore Orioles outright, you'd get MASN. They're private companies, so there's only so much info available online; but there's nothing filed with the state saying that the majority of ownership in TCR or MASN has changed hands, so I'd have to assume all these filings are relatively accurate.

Info on TCR:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000337&Folio=0396&Pages=0002&Date=12%2028%202001&Ack=1000361986576027&Domain=Charter&ID=A04458733&Name=TCR%20SPORTS%20BROADCASTING%20HOLDING,%20LLP&source=1

Info on MASN:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=&Folio=&Pages=2&Date=02/12/2010&Ack=1000361999635711&Domain=Charter&ID=T00221669&Name=MID-ATLANTIC%20SPORTS%20NETWORK&source=1

And for giggles, info on The O's LLP:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000330&Folio=1688&Pages=0002&Date=12%2021%202001&Ack=1000361986516932&Domain=Charter&ID=M03712379&Name=BALTIMORE%20ORIOLES%20LIMITED%20PARTNERSHIP&source=1

You also have to take the Forbes estimates with a grain of salt.. they're doing a best guess on the data available publicly. It'd be much easier to have an idea on franchise value if they were publicly traded companies.

This.

Letters

[srock]

We could have McCarver doing color in the booth.

:vader:

I swear I'll picket.

[stomperspc]

You made my point for me. Baltimore is a small market on its own. If Os get paid just for Baltimore we are not that far off now. DC is the size of Boston basically - they're 7 and 8 in DMA rankings. Boston has the edge by 17.5k TV households. .7% as in less than 1% separate them. For reference about 1.3 million households separate DC from Baltimore. It's night and day.

If one of either DC or BMore was to benefit from surrounding DMAs it'd be DC. The VA and south DMAs are bigger and there's more of them than whats north of BMore - although Harrisburg is no slouch.

Unless Fox gets bent over on a MASN sale on TV rights we're screwed. We'll be Tampa. We'll be the Marlins - well technically both those areas are in larger DMAs than Baltimore. So now we'd have to hope for overwhelming large TV ratings for future rights fees deals because our first deal would be bargain bin.

I guess I don't understand why the DMA situation would change. Are you assuming that Oriole games would only be aired in the Baltimore DMA after a sale to FOX?

Right now Orioles' games are broadcast in the Baltimore and DC markets. I would be surprised if that changed if a FOX sale went through since MASN and MASN2 are already readily available in those areas. If Orioles games still air in both markets, I don't see why the rights fee would decrease.

Just trying to understand.

[Frobby]

No the Orioles and Nats do not own MASN - the owners of the Orioles and Nats do. Just like the Orioles do no own Angelos' law firm. If the O's owned MASN, Forbes would value the Os at $1.5 billion.

Correct. But I believe that the O's have a deal with MLB over where their TV territory is, and so the sale of MASN does not shrink the area in which the team's games would be broadcast. I don't think the new owners would have the option of not broadcasting the Orioles in certain areas while continuing to broadcast the Nats. I will readily admit that I don't know all the facts about this, but when MLB wanted to put a team in DC, the Orioles had no legal right to stop them, but they did have some ability to claim exclusive TV rights over a certain area (basically, the area covered by MASN), and that is what gave them the leverage to force concessions that led to the creation of MASN, and I don't think that a new owner of MASN could unilaterally change that arrangement. Again, I'm just making educated guesses here, because there is a lot we don't know about the whole MASN arrangement.

[apollod]

Wrong..

There's nothing super recent on the MD Dept of Assessments and Taxation; but what is there show that the "BALTIMORE ORIOLES LIMITED PARTNERSHIP" which is in fact the LLP that owns the team (with PA as majority stakeholder/General partner) is the Managing Partner of "TCR SPORTS BROADCASTING HOLDING, LLP" which is the Managing Partner of "MID-ATLANTIC SPORTS NETWORK"

So the teams themselves do in fact own MASN (at least I'm presuming on the Nationals half; but the O's for sure own their 87% of MASN); PA only owns MASN so much in that he owns the Orioles. But if you were to buy the Baltimore Orioles outright, you'd get MASN. They're private companies, so there's only so much info available online; but there's nothing filed with the state saying that the majority of ownership in TCR or MASN has changed hands, so I'd have to assume all these filings are relatively accurate.

Info on TCR:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000337&Folio=0396&Pages=0002&Date=12%2028%202001&Ack=1000361986576027&Domain=Charter&ID=A04458733&Name=TCR%20SPORTS%20BROADCASTING%20HOLDING,%20LLP&source=1

Info on MASN:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=&Folio=&Pages=2&Date=02/12/2010&Ack=1000361999635711&Domain=Charter&ID=T00221669&Name=MID-ATLANTIC%20SPORTS%20NETWORK&source=1

And for giggles, info on The O's LLP:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000330&Folio=1688&Pages=0002&Date=12%2021%202001&Ack=1000361986516932&Domain=Charter&ID=M03712379&Name=BALTIMORE%20ORIOLES%20LIMITED%20PARTNERSHIP&source=1

You also have to take the Forbes estimates with a grain of salt.. they're doing a best guess on the data available publicly. It'd be much easier to have an idea on franchise value if they were publicly traded companies.

Just to followup on this.. Forbes had the Dodgers worth $800 million in 2011.. and what'd they sell for again? over twice that after assuming the $400 million in debt?

[Can_of_corn]

Just to followup on this.. Forbes had the Dodgers worth $800 million in 2011.. and what'd they sell for again? over twice that after assuming the $400 million in debt?

The Forbes numbers didn't include the new TV deal

[BrunoCherrytown]

I guess I don't understand why the DMA situation would change. Are you assuming that Oriole games would only be aired in the Baltimore DMA after a sale to FOX?

Right now Orioles' games are broadcast in the Baltimore and DC markets. I would be surprised if that changed if a FOX sale went through since MASN and MASN2 are already readily available in those areas. If Orioles games still air in both markets, I don't see why the rights fee would decrease.

Just trying to understand.

Someone in the direct DMA's of MASN pays $2.14 a month to their cable provider regardless of whether they watch MASN or not. I don't know what it is for the outliers say Charlotte or Harrisburg or Raleigh Durham. So by taking 87% of that chunk from the Nats DMA it's a windfall.

I live in South Florida and I see Rays games listed (I don't watch them), but I'm guessing I pay Fox whatever South for the joy of having Rays games.

The value of MASN currently isn't in the ad dollars/ratings - it's in the subscription dues. The John Riggins show isn't a revenue driver or the DAP commercials as much as just MASN running on cable.

So by taking this income stream away from the O's ownership group, you are kneecapping them. The O's rights fees will not be paid on the "potential" of viewership in Charlotte. They'll be looking at the direct DMA because most cable advertising is bought in zones. Tier 3 is local. Tier 2 is regional, Tier 1 is national. Tier 3 is when you see your local car dealer, Tier 2 is when you see your regional Ford dealers offering a sale. Tier 1 is your Lexus December to Remember Event national campaign kind of advertising. Or Coors Light train commercials. But that doesn't mean Tier 3 advertising is not valuable to the owner of the network. It's very valuable. But the O's have not proven a strength lately in drawing from those outlier DMAs. So Tier 3 advertising rates in Charlotte on MASN for an O's games probably aren't that lucrative.

Not sure if I made that any clearer.

[weams]

Wrong..

There's nothing super recent on the MD Dept of Assessments and Taxation; but what is there show that the "BALTIMORE ORIOLES LIMITED PARTNERSHIP" which is in fact the LLP that owns the team (with PA as majority stakeholder/General partner) is the Managing Partner of "TCR SPORTS BROADCASTING HOLDING, LLP" which is the Managing Partner of "MID-ATLANTIC SPORTS NETWORK"

So the teams themselves do in fact own MASN (at least I'm presuming on the Nationals half; but the O's for sure own their 87% of MASN); PA only owns MASN so much in that he owns the Orioles. But if you were to buy the Baltimore Orioles outright, you'd get MASN. They're private companies, so there's only so much info available online; but there's nothing filed with the state saying that the majority of ownership in TCR or MASN has changed hands, so I'd have to assume all these filings are relatively accurate.

Info on TCR:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000337&Folio=0396&Pages=0002&Date=12%2028%202001&Ack=1000361986576027&Domain=Charter&ID=A04458733&Name=TCR%20SPORTS%20BROADCASTING%20HOLDING,%20LLP&source=1

Info on MASN:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=&Folio=&Pages=2&Date=02/12/2010&Ack=1000361999635711&Domain=Charter&ID=T00221669&Name=MID-ATLANTIC%20SPORTS%20NETWORK&source=1

And for giggles, info on The O's LLP:

http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000330&Folio=1688&Pages=0002&Date=12%2021%202001&Ack=1000361986516932&Domain=Charter&ID=M03712379&Name=BALTIMORE%20ORIOLES%20LIMITED%20PARTNERSHIP&source=1

You also have to take the Forbes estimates with a grain of salt.. they're doing a best guess on the data available publicly. It'd be much easier to have an idea on franchise value if they were publicly traded companies.

So. You are saying that the same group of investors are the managing partners of each of these organizations? Because the same group could sell their interest in any of these business and retain their percentage ownership of the others if so.

[apollod]

The Forbes numbers didn't include the new TV deal

True.. but even counting the expectations of a new TV deal, Forbes only had the value at 1.4 Billion at the start of this past season. The winning bid was also $500 million above the next closest; I'm just using that as a reference point that you have to take Forbes valuations with a grain of salt.