Whichever side you're on of the Hall of Fame Steroids Debate ...

[weams]

We are on the same page except for Bonds. I say let Pete in, let Jackson in, let Bonds in. Bonds is not undeserving, you can deduct the last 6 years of his career and he would still be deserving. When we set ourselves up as paragons of virtue who somehow know who should be in what hall of fame, we set ourselves up to fail. Laurence Taylor should be in the football hall of fame because he was a game changing, tremendous football player. The fact that he was an arrogant, obnoxious drug addict doesn't change that fact. Ty Cobb should be in the baseball hall of fame. The fact that he was a deranged bigot doesn't change the fact that he is one of the ten best baseball players of all time. The moralist argument is a slippery slope that we don't want to go down imho.

I never said ban Barry. Just don't vote for him. In the context of his era without the cheating years, even if he were clean before, I dispute his worth.

[brianod]

I never said ban Barry. Just don't vote for him. In the context of his era without the cheating years, even if he were clean before, I dispute his worth.

ok, if you make a significant performance hit due to his steroid use and after that hit, his stats don't come up to hall of fame standards, fine. I don't agree, but we all have our opinions.

[Three Run Homer]

The other reason is that it's impossible to ban steroid users. You can only ban people who have failed a drug test. Which leads to the situation we have now where people who have been caught are cheats, and anyone who hasn't (including many users) are just normal players. Except in your scenario you'd be banning the people who weren't good/rich/lucky/smart enough avoid detection, and bestowing great honors on those who were but still used.

It would be like giving out Awesome Driver Certificates to everyone who hasn't gotten a speeding ticket in the last year, knowing that much of the differentiation was just luck or a better radar detector.

And how is that different from how gambling is treated? Don't you think a lot of players have gambled and were never caught?

Just because you can't catch everyone doesn't mean that you don't have rules and enforce them.

[Three Run Homer]

We can't define the benefit that steroids gave players.

We don't know who was on steroids (in all cases)

The only reason to ban steroid users but not spitballers and not amphetamine users is an unproven judgment that steroid users benefitted more then other cheaters.

Rule changes and equipment changes have, at times, had a greater effect across eras then steroids.

Add all this up and there is no fair and measured way to ban players that used steroids.

I'm not defending their actions, I'm simply saying that banning some cheaters and not others is an untenable and illogical argument

What's untenable is the idea that we can't ever discipline cheaters now or in the future, just because we failed to discipline cheaters in the past.

MLB should have taken a stronger stand against greenies in the 60s and 70s. They didn't. It's too late to sanction people retroactively.

That doesn't mean that steroid users should get a free pass now.

[Orange_Crush]

It really depends on how you view the Hall of Fame. To me, it's a way to tell the story of baseball. As such, I believe that anyone that is essential to tell the story of the game in the era they played should be in the Hall of Fame. To me, that includes Raffy, Bonds, Clemens. It also includes Pete Rose and Joe Jackson.

If I had a ballot, I'd vote 10 guys in, including: Bonds, Clemens, Raffy, Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Sosa (and either McGwire, Morris or Martinez).

There are no rules or regulations to the voting as it pertains to the 'cheaters.' As such, it's up to the voter's philosophy. There has been a lot of turmoil about the lack of clarity provided to the voters regarding the steroid users, but I think it's good to leave it up to the hearts and minds of the voters. The hall of fame is important because we fans of the game believe it to be important. The BBWAA members that vote are essential fans of the game that get paid to be fans of the game. I think it'll be interesting to see how these fans continue to treat the PED era players.

Fine, we'll do it your way. They should make a seperate thing called the Hall of Shame and thats for the cheaters.

[radar303]

The whole issue with the steroid era is that lots and lots of guys were using. Many never got caught, implications and our own "eye tests" seem to call out many players. Here is where

it gets tough. I have a friend who played in the minors w/ Trot Nixon. According to my bud.. one year Nixon came into spring training looking like he had swallowed a refrigerator. The ball

started jumping off his bat and his path to the majors was cleared. Even though my friend hit 300 in the minors he was a punch and judy hitter w/ no pop. When he would have meeting with the organization he was told he needed more pop and "look at what Trot did". Everyone was complicit in the scandal.

After hitting 500 in spring training he was released. No steroids for him.

The shame of it all..... tons of guys in the minor took steroids and still never made it. Lots of B grade players took steroids and never achieved stardom. We focus on the Bonds, Sosa's

etc. They were great players who enhanced their stats... lots of guys did not have the talent to make it big took the SAME steroids. Difficult to ban guys when almost EVERY guy from that era is tainted. Who can make a definitive list on who was not taking??? No one.

[DrungoHazewood]

And how is that different from how gambling is treated? Don't you think a lot of players have gambled and were never caught?

Just because you can't catch everyone doesn't mean that you don't have rules and enforce them.

I think you have to consider the consequences of your rules when you're giving extremely harsh penalties to those you catch, while acknowledging that a majority of rule-breakers get away with no penalty and massive rewards.

[russ snyder]

I have no problem with MLB banning players who gambled, or with these players being kicked out of the Hall of Fame. Gambling almost destroyed major league baseball in 1919. It makes sense to have a bright line banning players who gambled.

But steroid abuse can be argued to be just as serious to the integrity of the game as gambling. Steroid use not only gives some players an unfair advantage over others, but (unlike spitballs) it causes long-term health damage, and puts all players (including young amateurs) in an impossible prisoner's dilemma situation where they have to choose between damaging their health or putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage.

If I were running MLB, I would make steroid abuse just as bright of a line as gambling. I would ban steroid users from baseball and make them ineligible from the Hall. I suspect the only reason MLB hasn't done this is that certain owners were complicit in turning a blind eye towards the abuse that they knew was happening.

I agree. All baseball players know the consequences of gambling on baseball games. There is no lifetime ban for playing cards, betting the ponies etc. Pete Rose knew the rules and was caught gambling on games that he was managing. For this, he deserves the lifetime ban IMO.

I don't think that the rampant use of steroids damaged the integrity of the game. I fully believe that most players were either using steroids or knew who was using them. I'm not an advocate of self medicating, but I'd be surprised if these rich, highly conditioned athletes took these drugs without some type of medical advice.

Unfortunately you would have to deal with the players union. I think that's more the reason for the present policy than the past complicity of the commissioner, owners, team management, writers, and fans.

[brianod]

I agree. All baseball players know the consequences of gambling on baseball games. There is no lifetime ban for playing cards, betting the ponies etc. Pete Rose knew the rules and was caught gambling on games that he was managing. For this, he deserves the lifetime ban IMO.

I don't think that the rampant use of steroids damaged the integrity of the game. I fully believe that most players were either using steroids or knew who was using them. I'm not an advocate of self medicating, but I'd be surprised if these rich, highly conditioned athletes took these drugs without some type of medical advice.

Unfortunately you would have to deal with the players union. I think that's more the reason for the present policy than the past complicity of the commissioner, owners, team management, writers, and fans.

I would be shocked too. I fully expect they went to their doctor and discussed it. Doctor patient confidentiality would make that the smart thing to do. If I could take steroids for three years and make 10 million, it would be hard to say no to that. I suspect most players saw it as a risk reward equation.

[24fps]

I agree. All baseball players know the consequences of gambling on baseball games. There is no lifetime ban for playing cards, betting the ponies etc. Pete Rose knew the rules and was caught gambling on games that he was managing. For this, he deserves the lifetime ban IMO.

I don't think that the rampant use of steroids damaged the integrity of the game. I fully believe that most players were either using steroids or knew who was using them. I'm not an advocate of self medicating, but I'd be surprised if these rich, highly conditioned athletes took these drugs without some type of medical advice.

Unfortunately you would have to deal with the players union. I think that's more the reason for the present policy than the past complicity of the commissioner, owners, team management, writers, and fans.

I think there's enough blame to go around without having to single out the MLBPA although they certainly deserve their fair share. I'm glad you brought up the commissioner, owners, and managers because without their willful ignorance I believe the problem would have been smaller and addressed much more quickly.

If the "Steroid Era" didn't damage the integrity of the game then we should consider ourselves lucky because IMO it could have.

[russ snyder]

I think there's enough blame to go around without having to single out the MLBPA although they certainly deserve their fair share. I'm glad you brought up the commissioner, owners, and managers because without their willful ignorance I believe the problem would have been smaller and addressed much more quickly.

If the "Steroid Era" didn't damage the integrity of the game then we should consider ourselves lucky because IMO it could have.

I brought up the player's association in response to threerunhomer's desire to ban all steroid users if he was the commish. It's the union's job to protect its members, and I have no problem with that. Obviously, I agree that there is plenty of blame to go around regarding the steroids/PED issue in baseball. The fact that there was virtually no testing or punishment for using PED's in baseball for decades speaks volumes

IMO the era was at it's peak during the PED fueled home run race between Sosa and MCGwire. Both of these guys were popular and fan favorites. IMO things came to a head (no pun intended )when Barry Bonds destroyed the single season home run record. An unpopular player using PEDs basically made a mockery of one of the games most sacred marks. One could argue that these events damaged the integrity of the game, I'll just say that these events let the cat out of the proverbial bag.

[El Gordo]

I would say the growing use of steroids among HS and college athletes and the harm caused by that, is what fueled Comgress to make an issue out of Steriods. If that hadn't happened MLBud would have comtinued his blind eye. There is so much hypocrisy to go around among the MLB, owners, union, players, and press, that' simply to demonize certain players is silly IMO. If you're banning these players, then fire Selig, disllow the writers who kept silent to vote, ban the GM's and owners who looked the other way as well. Looking at this years ballot, Bonds (and I loath the guy) has a career OPS+ of 182, third all time behind only Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. How can you keep him out of the HOF? If you think steroids had much to do with that you are misinformed. BTW the next best OPS+is McGwire ay 163, putting him ahead of Musial and Mays ampng others.