What O's HOF (provided they were in their prime) would you add to the current roster?

[luismatos4prez]

No, it is absolutely comical that you can compare the impact of Cal Ripken to that of Frank Robinson. It isn't debatable. It isn't a matter of opinion. It is an absolute established fact that Frank is a top player of all time. Cal isn't. Sorry. This isn't a debatable point. Do some research and get back to me. Diamond mind has Cal as the 15th best offensive ss of all time with a runs created of 87. He played very good defense. Frank is the 9th best offensive player of all time that played very good defense at his position with a runs created of 115. Now, if you don't want to trust a company who's purpose is to study these things, fine. Find me another historical simulation company that disputes it. Otherwise, you're wasting my time.

Alright, well I clearly did do some research. I don't have a clue what Diamond Mind is, but I think I posted a pretty compelling argument for Cal in post #19 of this thread. If you're just going to not read or respond to it, and get angry at me for my opinion then I think you're the one who's wasting your own time.

[skanar]

@brianod, mostly.

I went to the Diamond Mind website, and they want you to pay (quite a bit!) to get any information. So, I just went and looked at the WAR stats myself. And you're very wrong: both Frank Robinson and Cal Ripken are top all-time players, and it's quite a reasonable point to discuss. Since LM4P's original claim was only about peak, here's some measures of peak (all in rWAR):

Best 3-year period: Frank 21.6, Cal 24.9

Best 5-year period: Frank 33.5, Cal 34.2

Best 7-year period: Frank 45.5, Cal 45.2

Best 3 years, nonconsecutive: Frank 23.2, Cal 29.1

Best 5 years, nonconsecutive: Frank 37.6, Cal 42.8

Best 7 years, nonconsecutive: Frank 50.4, Cal 54.6

So if you believe in rWAR, it's pretty clear that Cal actually had the higher peak.

Now, Frank Robinson had a much longer prime than Cal: from 1982 to 1991, Cal was unbeatable, but he never topped 4 WAR again (ironically, Cal was 30 in '91, so you could have said that HE was "an old 30"). Frank produced at a high level, albeit with a down year or two, through age 37. As a result, he has more career WAR: 100.9 for Frank, 90.9 for Cal. Frank was inarguably a better offensive player, even when accounting for position, with a 156 OPS+ to Cal's 112, and 100.8 offensive WAR (which is position-adjusted) to Cal's 72.8.

But WAR sees Robinson as a slightly negative defender, every season, which adds up over his long career, and it LOVES Cal's defense, giving him +34.5 defensive WAR.

Moreover, with the exception of Alex Rodriguez, who has steroid issues and may soon be a third baseman, Cal is the best shortstop since Honus Wagner, and it isn't all that close. His closest competitors are George Davis, who played from 1890 to 1909 and is 10 WAR behind Cal, and Arky Vaughan, Robin Young, and Ozzie Smith, who are all 20 WAR behind. Robinson, in right field, is well behind Ruth, Aaron, and Musial, and about even with Mel Ott. Would you rather have the 2nd-best SS or the tied-for-4th greatest RF?

It's really hard to even compare Ripken and Robinson, since they played different positions and provided value in very different ways: Cal through defense and good-but-not great hitting, with some otherworldly seasons but also a shorter prime; Frank through pure offense, both on-base and slugging, as well as more stolen bases than you would expect, and excellent longevity and season-to-season consistency through an elongated prime.

I think, on the whole, Robinson was the more valuable player. But I think Ripken had the higher peak. And I'm not sure who I'd pick to start a new franchise with.

[mdbdotcom]

@brianod, mostly.

I went to the Diamond Mind website, and they want you to pay (quite a bit!) to get any information. So, I just went and looked at the WAR stats myself. And you're very wrong: both Frank Robinson and Cal Ripken are top all-time players, and it's quite a reasonable point to discuss. Since LM4P's original claim was only about peak, here's some measures of peak (all in rWAR):

Best 3-year period: Frank 21.6, Cal 24.9

Best 5-year period: Frank 33.5, Cal 34.2

Best 7-year period: Frank 45.5, Cal 45.2

Best 3 years, nonconsecutive: Frank 23.2, Cal 29.1

Best 5 years, nonconsecutive: Frank 37.6, Cal 42.8

Best 7 years, nonconsecutive: Frank 50.4, Cal 54.6

So if you believe in rWAR, it's pretty clear that Cal actually had the higher peak.

Now, Frank Robinson had a much longer prime than Cal: from 1982 to 1991, Cal was unbeatable, but he never topped 4 WAR again (ironically, Cal was 30 in '91, so you could have said that HE was "an old 30"). Frank produced at a high level, albeit with a down year or two, through age 37. As a result, he has more career WAR: 100.9 for Frank, 90.9 for Cal. Frank was inarguably a better offensive player, even when accounting for position, with a 156 OPS+ to Cal's 112, and 100.8 offensive WAR (which is position-adjusted) to Cal's 72.8.

But WAR sees Robinson as a slightly negative defender, every season, which adds up over his long career, and it LOVES Cal's defense, giving him +34.5 defensive WAR.

Moreover, with the exception of Alex Rodriguez, who has steroid issues and may soon be a third baseman, Cal is the best shortstop since Honus Wagner, and it isn't all that close. His closest competitors are George Davis, who played from 1890 to 1909 and is 10 WAR behind Cal, and Arky Vaughan, Robin Young, and Ozzie Smith, who are all 20 WAR behind. Robinson, in right field, is well behind Ruth, Aaron, and Musial, and about even with Mel Ott. Would you rather have the 2nd-best SS or the tied-for-4th greatest RF?

It's really hard to even compare Ripken and Robinson, since they played different positions and provided value in very different ways: Cal through defense and good-but-not great hitting, with some otherworldly seasons but also a shorter prime; Frank through pure offense, both on-base and slugging, as well as more stolen bases than you would expect, and excellent longevity and season-to-season consistency through an elongated prime.

I think, on the whole, Robinson was the more valuable player. But I think Ripken had the higher peak. And I'm not sure who I'd pick to start a new franchise with.

For me, these stats are an excellent illustration of why you have to watch them play. The numbers don't tell the whole story about either player. Among other things, they don't show how Frank lifted the play of everyone else on his team and intimidated the opposition. For example, they don't show the positive impact his post-game kangaroo courts had on the team or what it meant to a team and a city to have a ball leave Memorial Stadium. Yes, his arm wore down over years of banging into walls (and famously going over the home run porch in Yankee Stadium to make a catch), but he was not a negative on defense. Obviously, they both were great players, but Frank was an uplifting player in ways Cal and the others on the list never were or even tried to be. And I think that quality is key to answering the poll question. If it were just a matter of looking up the numbers, there would be nothing to discuss.

[luismatos4prez]

For me, these stats are an excellent illustration of why you have to watch them play. The numbers don't tell the whole story about either player. Among other things, they don't show how Frank lifted the play of everyone else on his team and intimidated the opposition. For example, they don't show the positive impact his post-game kangaroo courts had on the team or what it meant to a team and a city to have a ball leave Memorial Stadium. Yes, his arm wore down over years of banging into walls (and famously going over the home run porch in Yankee Stadium to make a catch), but he was not a negative on defense. Obviously, they both were great players, but Frank was an uplifting player in ways Cal and the others on the list never were or even tried to be. And I think that quality is key to answering the poll question. If it were just a matter of looking up the numbers, there would be nothing to discuss.

No player ever has ever exemplified a workhorse, give everything you have for the team approach like Cal Ripken did. And I don't know of any other non-catcher that called the pitches for his team.

They both provided plenty of intangibles. Don't diminish Cal by making him seem like a ne'er do well compared to Frank. They were both great leaders and great Orioles. If you want to make the argument that Frank's kangaroo courts more than make up for the fact that Cal was better at his best, then I won't tell you otherwise, but I don't buy it at all.

[mdbdotcom]

No player ever has ever exemplified a workhorse, give everything you have for the team approach like Cal Ripken did. And I don't know of any other non-catcher that called the pitches for his team.

They both provided plenty of intangibles. Don't diminish Cal by making him seem like a ne'er do well compared to Frank. They were both great leaders and great Orioles. If you want to make the argument that Frank's kangaroo courts more than make up for the fact that Cal was better at his best, then I won't tell you otherwise, but I don't buy it at all.

I didn't do that at all. Nor did I attempt to diminish the achievements of any of our HOFers. I loved watching them all play.

[luismatos4prez]

I didn't do that at all. Nor did I attempt to diminish the achievements of any of our HOFers. I loved watching them all play.

If Cal had the personality type of Milton Bradley or JD Drew, then your point about Frank might be valid.

As it is, I see no evidence that Frank had more of an intangible positive impact to the team than Cal, or any of the HOFers on that list did. All of them set positive examples on and off the field. Just different styles.

[Ruzious]

Brooks Robinson is my favorite all-time O, and Cal Ripken's accomplishments are beyond words, but I think both of them would tell you that the greatest player to ever lace em up for the Baltimore Orioles was Frank Robinson. I just saw him when I was very young, but even then I always knew that when a pitcher threw too close to him, he wasn't going to show any sign of emotion. He was just going to hit a homerun and stoicly run around the bases as the pitcher stared at the ground.

[Can_of_corn]

Brooks Robinson is my favorite all-time O, and Cal Ripken's accomplishments are beyond words, but I think both of them would tell you that the greatest player to ever lace em up for the Baltimore Orioles was Frank Robinson. I just saw him when I was very young, but even then I always knew that when a pitcher threw too close to him, he wasn't going to show any sign of emotion. He was just going to hit a homerun and stoicly run around the bases as the pitcher stared at the ground.

So if he could hit homeruns at will, why didn't he hit a couple hundred a season? Or was he like a mini-hulk and could only tap into this power when peeved at the pitcher?

Frank was plenty good enough to not need all the extra hype being thrown at him this thread.

[mdbdotcom]

If Cal had the personality type of Milton Bradley or JD Drew, then your point about Frank might be valid.

As it is, I see no evidence that Frank had more of an intangible positive impact to the team than Cal, or any of the HOFers on that list did. All of them set positive examples on and off the field. Just different styles.

Like I said, you had to be there.

[Can_of_corn]

Like I said, you had to be there.

Makes me wonder why he let the team lose to the Mets and the Pirates in the WS.

[mdbdotcom]

Makes me wonder why he let the team lose to the Mets and the Pirates in the WS.

Really? Is that what it makes you wonder?

[Can_of_corn]

Really? Is that what it makes you wonder?

No, I am wondering why folks are resorting to nonsense about intangibles to hype of the career of an all time great. Frank's resume doesn't need padding.

[mdbdotcom]

No, I am wondering why folks are resorting to nonsense about intangibles to hype of the career of an all time great. Frank's resume doesn't need padding.

When Brooks and Palmer talk about Frank, they never fail to say that they were a good team before he got there, but that he taught them how to win. That's on top of the numbers he put up. That's an intangible, and it's not hooey. Frank's resume, like everyone else's, is about more than numbers.

[Can_of_corn]

When Brooks and Palmer talk about Frank, they never fail to say that they were a good team before he got there, but that he taught them how to win. That's on top of the numbers he put up. That's an intangible, and it's not hooey. Frank's resume, like everyone else's, is about more than numbers.

You are giving him bonus points for running a Kangaroo Court.

Hooey.

[brianod]

For those really interested in this debate, I'd urge you to go to imagine sports .com. You build and manage teams made up of anyone who ever played three years in the majors. The game engine is built by Diamond mind by many of the guys that started saber-metrics. Salaries of the Orioles we are talking about:

Frank 19.2 million

Cal 13.6 million

Murray 13.2 million

Brooks 12.2 million

Palmer 11.9 million

The game normalizes for era so that Frank benefits from playing in a pitchers era, Cal suffers a bit for playing in a hitters era.

Here are some players and their salaries for those interested in this stuff:

Player Salary

Ruth, BabeL $30,233,000

Williams, TedL $25,101,000

Bonds, BarryL $24,877,000

Gehrig, LouL $23,715,000

Mantle, MickeyS $26,958,000

Hornsby, RogersR $22,700,000

Oh, SadaharuL $15,950,000

Foxx, JimmieR $21,007,000

Cobb, TyL $24,993,000

Gibson, JoshR $21,201,000

Ott, MelL $19,530,000

McGwire, MarkR $15,760,000

Mathews, EddieL $21,566,000

Thome, JimL $17,042,000

Musial, StanL $20,319,000

Thomas, Frank ER $15,247,000

Leonard, BuckL $17,995,000

Giambi, JasonL $14,580,000

Mays, WillieR $24,977,000

Ramirez, MannyR $15,851,000

Bagwell, JeffR $17,134,000

Keller, CharlieL $14,576,000

Sheffield, GaryR $13,998,000

Martinez, EdgarR $13,377,000

Mize, JohnnyL $17,495,000

Robinson, FrankR $19,279,000

Rodriguez, AlexR $19,896,000

Wagner, HonusR $25,208,000

Allen, DickR $15,810,000

McCovey, WillieL $13,546,000

Charleston, OscarL $23,082,000

All offensive and defensive stats are considered. Salaries are determined by usage over time. Ie, if a guy starts at 15 million and is used all the time, his salary will go up. So, over time, player salary reflects value. At least if you trust Diamond mind.