Do you think Adam Jones would willingly move from CF if we got someone better?

[Il BuonO]

The metrics point to him having below average range as compared to other CF's. I believe that is true. A lot of that is made up by is arm, which is superior to most (if not all) other CF's. .

I tend to agree with weams somewhat. I had just asked this question the other day with regards to metrics in application of OFs. To say he has below average range is just too general. The stat might show it that way, but I'm telling you that watching him as a scout I'd tell you he coasts. He doesn't run to a spot and pick up the ball. It's poor training along the way. His routes aren't great but below average doesn't go into all that takes place when he goes after a ball. Watching him and McLouth, for instance, is like the diametrically opposed versions of what you'd tell a young player to do when tracking balls hit to the OF.

Jones has above average speed but I feel he often tries to glide to balls and has to catch up if he has misjudged the flight off the bat. He's be in better position if he took off at the crack of the bat and picked up the flight of the ball. Difficult to learn at this late date.

[weams]

The metrics point to him having below average range as compared to other CF's. I believe that is true. A lot of that is made up by is arm, which is superior to most (if not all) other CF's. .

I believe that as far as BIG Centerfielders who can HIT are concerned, he is definitely above average on what he gets to. His straight line speed is not the equivalent of Michael Bourn or Jason Bourgeois. I'm sorry. I think the metrics are still way off. Rather than complain about Adam, the shredder needs to refine it's formula a lot.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I tend to agree with weams somewhat. I had just asked this question the other day with regards to metrics in application of OFs. To say he has below average range is just too general. The stat might show it that way, but I'm telling you that watching him as a scout I'd tell you he coasts. He doesn't run to a spot and pick up the ball. It's poor training along the way. His routes aren't great but below average doesn't go into all that takes place when he goes after a ball. Watching him and McLouth, for instance, is like the diametrically opposed versions of what you'd tell a young player to do when tracking balls hit to the OF.

Jones has above average speed but I feel he often tries to glide to balls and has to catch up if he has misjudged the flight off the bat. He's be in better position if he took off at the crack of the bat and picked up the flight of the ball. Difficult to learn at this late date.

Whether it's poor training, poor positioning, or poor jumps/reads there's is just too much evidence that he consistently does not get to balls that other CFs are geting to. I agree he has above average speed but you have to realize he is being solely compared and judged to other "centerfielders" around the league. When you take a few minutes to look at who those guys are (even if you can't see them all play) it's fairly easy to understand that he can have below average range ... imo.

That said, I don't think Jones is horrible in CF. In the end, were talking about giving up 5-8 runs there based on a 3-4 year running average. He hits well enough to have plenty of value there even if he is below average.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I believe that as far as BIG Centerfielders who can HIT are concerned, he is definitely above average on what he gets to. His straight line speed is not the equivalent of Michael Bourn or Jason Bourgeois. I'm sorry. I think the metrics are still way off. Rather than complain about Adam, the shredder needs to refine it's formula a lot.

He's compared to a ALL centerfielders and not BIG Centerfielders who can hit. Defense and offense are traded off in the overall valuation.

[weams]

He's compared to a ALL centerfielders and not BIG Centerfielders who can hit. Defense and offense are traded off in the overall valuation.

They need a big Centerfielder who can hit. And they have him. Until he becomes a sub standard fielder, he will man centerfield for the Orioles.There is no trade off with Adam. He does both better than average. Even factoring the defense only guys. The metric is imperfect.

[CA-ORIOLE]

They need a big Centerfielder who can hit. And they have him. Until he becomes a sub standard fielder, he will man centerfield for the Orioles.There is no trade off with Adam. He does both better than average. Even factoring the defense only guys. The metric is imperfect.

Ok, fair enough Weams. Sounds like you're dug in pretty well.

[weams]

Ok, fair enough Weams. Sounds like you're dug in pretty well.

I respect your opposing opinion as well.

[Frobby]

I tend to agree with weams somewhat. I had just asked this question the other day with regards to metrics in application of OFs. To say he has below average range is just too general. The stat might show it that way, but I'm telling you that watching him as a scout I'd tell you he coasts. He doesn't run to a spot and pick up the ball. It's poor training along the way. His routes aren't great but below average doesn't go into all that takes place when he goes after a ball. Watching him and McLouth, for instance, is like the diametrically opposed versions of what you'd tell a young player to do when tracking balls hit to the OF.

Jones has above average speed but I feel he often tries to glide to balls and has to catch up if he has misjudged the flight off the bat. He's be in better position if he took off at the crack of the bat and picked up the flight of the ball. Difficult to learn at this late date.

I agree with your assssment. Jones has the speed to have above average range. He's a great athlete. He has some bad habits and every so often he misjudges a ball egregiously and looks silly. He also occasionally fails to position himself correctly to make a good throw or doesn't hit the cutoff man. But overall, he's a pretty good CF, it's just frustrating that he's not a little better, because he could be.

[El Gordo]

If it helps, I'm for moving Jones to RF and Nick to first.

I think this is what will eventually happen as they age.

[El Gordo]

The metrics point to him having below average range as compared to other CF's. I believe that is true. A lot of that is made up by is arm, which is superior to most (if not all) other CF's. .

Once upon a time FanGraphs used to present home/away splits, and when they did they showed Jones to be average to above away and below ar home. I don't see how his range could be that different due to mystery park effects. I wonder why they stopped giving out that info. I do know that neither Bill James or Dewan had an explanation for the difference. If Jones has a problem it is in positioing and reads. This is something he can improve on even as he ages and slows down.

[CaptainRedbeard]

Even if you think that Jones is an average to above average center fielder, he's not good enough that he would lose defensive value by moving to RF, IMO. He has - at best - average range and a very good arm. That skillset should translate to being a very good RF without losing any overall defensive value.

I used to believe Markakis was a very good RF. Last season, it was clear that he slowed down a step. At this point in his career, I don't think he's not getting that step back. Like Jones, a lot of value is in his arm. IMO he has average arm strength for a RF but is exceptionally accurate. Personally, I think he's got a great arm for everything except the very longest throws, like from the RF corner to 3B. That arm will still play in LF, and it will lose a bit of value, but not too much. Not as much as moving somebody like Jones, whose best asset is his great arm strength and average accuracy. There has also been talk that Markakis likes 1B and can play it pretty well.

Bottom line, if we add Bourn and go with Bourn in CF, Jones in RF, and some assortment of Markakis/McLouth/Davis/Betemit/Reimold at the LF/1B/DH positions, we're a much better team. Defensively, the only loss we have is moving Markakis' arm to LF. We'd be adding one of the premiere defensive CF in the game. Offensively, we'd be adding a dynamic leadoff hitter with the OBP we want, some actual SB potential, and eliminate the need to platoon at both LF and DH. Quite honestly I think that single move would make us legitimate contenders rather than a "kinda-above-.500-maybe" team.

But, the whole argument falls apart if we sign Bourn and play him in LF, or if we sign Bourn and move Jones to LF. It makes ZERO sense. We'd lose the ability to play McLouth at all, we'd be wasting a huge chunk of Bourn's value in LF, and we'd still have suspect defense outfield defense on a team with a lot of flyball pitchers. I think Jones is a very smart player and a very team-oriented person, and if he sees even half of the logic behind what would go into such a move he would decide (probably begrudgingly) that it was worth moving to RF.

As a side note, I would add that Jones may realize his days of winning gold gloves in CF are probably at an end if Trout starts playing there regularly. But if he moves to RF he could definitely win A BUNCH more.

[Frobby]

Even if you think that Jones is an average to above average center fielder, he's not good enough that he would lose defensive value by moving to RF, IMO. He has - at best - average range and a very good arm. That skillset should translate to being a very good RF without losing any overall defensive value.

I used to believe Markakis was a very good RF. Last season, it was clear that he slowed down a step. At this point in his career, I don't think he's not getting that step back.

Last winter, Markakis spent the first three months of the offseason waiting for what he thought was a deep pelvic bruise to heal, then had his injury diagnosed as an abdominal tear, had surgery early in January, and basically lost an entire winter of normal conditioning. For that reason, I'm not willing to assume that he has permanently lost a step. If he still looks a step slow out there this year, I'll concede the point. But I also don't know why people just assume he'll be a good defensive 1B. It's a very different skill set than playing the OF.

[Can_of_corn]

Last winter, Markakis spent the first three months of the offseason waiting for what he thought was a deep pelvic bruise to heal, then had his injury diagnosed as an abdominal tear, had surgery early in January, and basically lost an entire winter of normal conditioning. For that reason, I'm not willing to assume that he has permanently lost a step. If he still looks a step slow out there this year, I'll concede the point. But I also don't know why people just assume he'll be a good defensive 1B. It's a very different skill set than playing the OF.

Probably because he looked pretty comfortable over there in 2011, even if it was a SSS (2 GS).

[CaptainRedbeard]

Last winter, Markakis spent the first three months of the offseason waiting for what he thought was a deep pelvic bruise to heal, then had his injury diagnosed as an abdominal tear, had surgery early in January, and basically lost an entire winter of normal conditioning. For that reason, I'm not willing to assume that he has permanently lost a step. If he still looks a step slow out there this year, I'll concede the point. But I also don't know why people just assume he'll be a good defensive 1B. It's a very different skill set than playing the OF.

It may be true that Markakis can get that step back, I'm just not optimistic that he will. It is definitely a possibility though.

As for Markakis at 1B, it'd be more of a backup for if Davis can't handle it. Right now our backup is Ishikawa and Betemit, which is underwhelming (although I do love the Ishikawa signing). I'm not assuming that Markakis could automatically play 1B well, but I do think he is a very good athlete and could certainly learn. I seem to recall he likes taking grounders there and has a decent amount of practice, although not in-game practice.

I'm not gunning to throw dirt on your favorite player Frobby . He happens to be my favorite too, and Jones is probably my second favorite. I'm just trying to be realistic about their capabilities and limits.

[Frobby]

I'm not gunning to throw dirt on your favorite player Frobby . He happens to be my favorite too, and Jones is probably my second favorite. I'm just trying to be realistic about their capabilities and limits.

Me too. As I said, if Nick isn't a little quicker out there in 2013, I'll concede the point.