The Rivera love is sickening

[Blizzard1090]

No one is ever going to get in with 100%,ever.

As for Mo,as a relief pitcher,he was among the best and his postseason record speaks for itself. Yes he got more chances then anyone else but versus many other modern day closers I've seen,he's by far the best I've seen and for close to 15 years as well.

The lovefest...sadly won't be avoided but it won't bug me as much as the Jeter lovefest will be.

[DrungoHazewood]

I've always thought WAR under rates relief pitchers.

I don't. It's already (roughly) double-counting their impact because of leverage. Remember, a modern closer almost never throws 80 innings anymore, and they never have to face a batter a 2nd time in a game. They never have a situation where they have to throw at 80% or 90% because they know they're trying to go through the lineup two or three times and throw 100+ pitches.

Just look at where most closers came from - they were minor league starters who didn't have the durability/pitch selection/quality to start in the majors. You know why Lee Smith was a closer? His last year as a full-time starter he had a 5.98 ERA with 128 BBs and 71 Ks in 155 innings. In AA. Jim Johnson's last year as a starter he was 6-12 with the 7th-best starter ERA on the sub-.500 Norfolk Tides. Hell, look at Tommy Hunter. Terrible starter. Move him to the pen and all of a sudden he starts pumping 97 mph heat.

Every time I see a closer I think that any decent starter could rack up 30+ saves.

Now... Mariano Rivera is hands-down the best 9th-inning-only closer in history, with "history" in this case being roughly 1980-present. I'd put him in the Hall. But you'd have a heck of a time convincing me that he's been as valuable as Andre Dawson, much less Mickey Mantle.

[DrungoHazewood]

I've always thought WAR under rates relief pitchers.

Sorry for responding to this post twice in two different ways... but compare relief pitchers to pinch hitters. Mark Sweeney, for example. Sweeney has pinch hit 799 times in his career, and created 99 runs in this role, an all-time record (or at least as far back as current data goes). Sweeney also has a disproportionate share of his career PAs in the 7th inning on, and a disproportionate share of PAs in high- and medium-leverage situations.

You could probably come up with a reasonable argument that Sweeney was 20 or 25 or even more wins above replacement in that role. He's ususally batting for a pitcher who's OPSing .300, or a very weak-hitting middle infielder. Arguably the best pinch hitter ever, someone who consistently came up in the key moments of close games and delevered disproportionately impactful results. Just like a closer.

Obviously 799 times pinch hitting isn't quite the same as 799 innings/games as a closer. But nobody even begins to consider Mark Sweeney an all-time great, or even someone worthy of an expensive contract, while closers who're pretty good for a handful of years and don't really register in value metrics get $8M, $10M, $12M a year and the ones who last 15 years get HOF consideration.

[glenn__davis]

Rivera's a great player.

I've always thought that generic relievers, and closers in particular, are overrated. But I believe modern statistical analysis underrates truly elite closers. There is a human element that cannot be measured in having a reliable, lights out closer. I truly believe it picks the rest of the team up, and I truly believe you see more focus from the rest of the team in the later innings when they know that if they can scratch out a lead they have a closer who will protect it.

I agree with those in general who say that closers are overrated, but not for the truly elite.

[DrungoHazewood]

I agree with those in general who say that closers are overrated, but not for the truly elite.

I still think even the elite closers are overrated because any good starter could do their job. Or almost any good starter. And any All Star level starter could be an elite closer, but you don't make them an elite closer becuase they would be like having the CEO of your company negotiating fire insurance and leases and stuff. While important, that's a misallocation of resources.

[glenn__davis]

I still think even the elite closers are overrated because any good starter could do their job. Or almost any good starter. And any All Star level starter could be an elite closer, but you don't make them an elite closer becuase they would be like having the CEO of your company negotiating fire insurance and leases and stuff. While important, that's a misallocation of resources.

I can certainly understand that argument, but I guess that kind of depends on how you define a "good" starter. Are you talking a #1 or #2 type guy? If so, then I generally agree, but then those guys usually make a lot more than closers on the FA market anyway. But I certainly don't think someone such as, say, Joe Saunders could be as good a closer as Mariano Rivera.

[waroriole]

Fire Joe Morgan took this guy to task for an article he wrote bad mouthing Tim Wakefield:

http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firejoemorgan.com%2F2007%2F05%2Fwhat-eff.html%3Fm%3D1&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGMlcoALDXwmgkO4wAN1acZXJP9Kg

FJM has quite a few gems on this "writer." The first one is great. After the 2007 season, he wanted the MFY to not sign ARod and instead put that money into relief pitching. Not guys who could be great set up men to Rivera, but middle relief pitching.

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/06/this-dude-is-machine.html

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/03/cancel-all-slogans.html

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/06/butterfly-flaps-wings-yanks-win-six.html

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/04/small-sample-size-gilloolys.html

Other people pick up the slack where FJM left off:

http://icranter.blogspot.com/2012/07/how-does-wallace-matthews-still-have-job.html

[DrungoHazewood]

I can certainly understand that argument, but I guess that kind of depends on how you define a "good" starter. Are you talking a #1 or #2 type guy? If so, then I generally agree, but then those guys usually make a lot more than closers on the FA market anyway. But I certainly don't think someone such as, say, Joe Saunders could be as good a closer as Mariano Rivera.

I don't think any sane person makes the case that Joe Saunders could be Mariano Rivera. But I think Joe Saunders has pitched as well as a starter in the major leagues as Jim Johnson did as a starter in the minor leagues. So I think that had Joe Saunders pitched only 9th innings from the start of his career he'd be a very solid closer. I also think that someone like a Josh Beckett, a solid 2/3 starter with a few ace-type years, could have easily had a 15-year career of 500 saves ala Lee Smith.

[waroriole]

More FJM and Wallace Matthews:

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2006/11/meditations-on-jeter.html

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/09/matthews-first-to-fall-others-expected.html

[glenn__davis]

I don't think any sane person makes the case that Joe Saunders could be Mariano Rivera. But I think Joe Saunders has pitched as well as a starter in the major leagues as Jim Johnson did as a starter in the minor leagues. So I think that had Joe Saunders pitched only 9th innings from the start of his career he'd be a very solid closer. I also think that someone like a Josh Beckett, a solid 2/3 starter with a few ace-type years, could have easily had a 15-year career of 500 saves ala Lee Smith.

I don't disagree with that. But the two were compensated accordingly (or would have been IMO had they pitched in the same era). So I don't think closers are overrated from that standpoint.

Sure, there are still a few who are impressed by pure save count, but I think most today understand that that's a product of a lot of things.

I just think some take it too far and devalue the closer role too much, particularly for the good ones. I agree that average closers are overrated. In fact, I think it's dumb to even have one if he's not a truly shut-down guy, yet many teams try to force players into that role.

You can make the case that Jim Johnson is not an elite closer, but last year, he was, and I believe that had a tremendous effect on the rest of the team. It made them better in ways that you cannot measure.

[Sanfran327]

Mo = Yankee. Yankee = suck. Mo = suck.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

Ahh yes. The transitive property of Suck. I think it applies here.

In all honesty though, Mo is my favorite current Yankee, and it's not close. He's a classy dude, and never really displayed any characteristics of the Yankee Elitists like Jeter. He just quietly went about dominating the 9th inning for a helluva long time. He's not the third best Yankee of all time, but he could be considered a Top 10 player for that franchise. That's extremely high praise, but it's also not a stretch. To do what he did at that level for that long is nothing short of incredible. Kudos to him for a spectacular career.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Yankee hatred.

Yeah, it will blow hearing about Mo's last year 18 times this year (or whatever the number is), but at the same time, the rest of the sports world had to deal with the same thing with Cal and Ray Lewis, although his wasn't a full-season retirement parade through the NFL. So I guess you kinda have to take the good with the bad and be thankful when the season is over and the Yankees finish in 4th place in the AL East knowing we'll never have to face Rivera ever again.

[waroriole]

I don't disagree with that. But the two were compensated accordingly (or would have been IMO had they pitched in the same era). So I don't think closers are overrated from that standpoint.

Sure, there are still a few who are impressed by pure save count, but I think most today understand that that's a product of a lot of things.

I just think some take it too far and devalue the closer role too much, particularly for the good ones. I agree that average closers are overrated. In fact, I think it's dumb to even have one if he's not a truly shut-down guy, yet many teams try to force players into that role.

You can make the case that Jim Johnson is not an elite closer, but last year, he was, and I believe that had a tremendous effect on the rest of the team. It made them better in ways that you cannot measure.

I agree. I don't know how you would measure the psychological effect that has on a team, but I'm guessing it has some positive effect, especially if there is a true elite closer at the end.

[Dipper9]

I'm not a Rivera fan, and I'll get some backlash for this, but I'm sure there were a lot of non-Baltimore fans out there that said this same type of stuff about our Iron Man. Every city he went to he got gifts and praise, etc. Can you imagine if Mo comes here and the O's honored him with a gift on the pitchers mound of OPACY before a game? Because that's EXACTLY what teams for doing for Cal! It was really ridiculous when you stop and think about it.

[Can_of_corn]

I'm not a Rivera fan, and I'll get some backlash for this, but I'm sure there were a lot of non-Baltimore fans out there that said this same type of stuff about our Iron Man. Every city he went to he got gifts and praise, etc. Can you imagine if Mo comes here and the O's honored him with a gift on the pitchers mound of OPACY before a game? Because that's EXACTLY what teams for doing for Cal! It was really ridiculous when you stop and think about it.

I agree.

But Cal didn't do the multiple retirement crap that folks like Rivera and Farve did.

Chipper is a better comparison to Cal.

[Blizzard1090]

On the retirement thing,I really don't see a problem with the way Mariano's handled it. Sadly living in an area where I'm often forced to watch the YES network,I can tell you first hand how annoying many of their reporters are. If there isn't a story to something,they'll make it one.

I know I'll get some grief but if he was wearing any uniform but the pinstripes,I imagine the tune many hear are playing would be different.

I won't have this same attitude when Jeter retires. Read between the lines on stories about him over the years and you'll see his great guy baseball image is just that,an image.