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Interesting Blyleven stats


Moose Milligan

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Good work MR, that's another way of showing how deserving Bert is of being in the HOF. Also another good way of showing how overrated Nolan Ryan is, and how underrated Kevin Brown is, which I have mentioned before.

Well, it's not established as "authoritative" the way HOF Standards and HOF Monitor are, so it all has to be taken with a healthy dose of salt.

Nolan Ryan makes it in because he's the overall strikeout leader by a ridiculous margin and because of those 7 no hitters; it doesn't really matter so much that he ranks only 77th on my list and has only 2 20-win seasons.

Catfish Hunter was the HOF pitcher whose ranking jumped out at me as I compiled the list -- outside of some old timers I never knew about. He ranked 177th on my list, below such luminaries as Charlie Hough.

I just spotted why I missed Lefty Grove at #8. I failed to get his ERA+ and innings pitched merged. Lefty's ERA+ ranks in at #81 by itself, while his innings ranks by itself ranks him at #150. Silly of me! If I wasn't so tired from all that formatting, it should have struck me as quite unusual that Lefty Grove was the first player on the list without the ERA+ and innings ranks tallied up.

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Catfish Hunter was the HOF pitcher whose ranking jumped out at me as I compiled the list -- outside of some old timers I never knew about. He ranked 177th on my list, below such luminaries as Charlie Hough.

I think Catfish gets some extra credit for having played on 5 world champion teams. Like it or not, guys who were key components on winning teams are always going to get a significant bump.

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MR basically said this already, with much more research and work put into his post, but a simple way to express Blyleven's combination of longevity and quality is runs saved above average. Simply, how many runs better than an average pitcher he was each year, totaled up for his career.

In RSAA Blyleven is 17th. Ever.

Here's the top 25:

RSAA                           RSAA    1    Cy Young                    813   2    Roger Clemens               727   3    Kid Nichols                 678   4    Lefty Grove                 668   5    Walter Johnson              643   6    Greg Maddux                 564   7    Grover C Alexander          524   8    Randy Johnson               513   9    John Clarkson               508   10   Pedro Martinez              506   11   Christy Mathewson           405   12   Tom Seaver                  404   13   Tim Keefe                   377   14   Amos Rusie                  370   15   Carl Hubbell                355   16   Bob Gibson                  350   17   Bert Blyleven               344   18   Curt Schilling              329   19   Phil Niekro                 322   20   Whitey Ford                 321   21   Warren Spahn                319   22   Tom Glavine                 318   23   Gaylord Perry               317   24   Jim Palmer                  314   25   Mike Mussina                310  

Everyone on that list who's eligible for the Hall is in. Tommy Bridges at 28 is the top eligible pitcher not in, and he has a good HOF case.

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MR basically said this already, with much more research and work put into his post, but a simple way to express Blyleven's combination of longevity and quality is runs saved above average. Simply, how many runs better than an average pitcher he was each year, totaled up for his career.

In RSAA Blyleven is 17th. Ever.

That's probably the most convincing thing I have read on the Blyleven debate. Ever.

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Well, it's not established as "authoritative" the way HOF Standards and HOF Monitor are, so it all has to be taken with a healthy dose of salt.

Nolan Ryan makes it in because he's the overall strikeout leader by a ridiculous margin and because of those 7 no hitters; it doesn't really matter so much that he ranks only 77th on my list and has only 2 20-win seasons.

Catfish Hunter was the HOF pitcher whose ranking jumped out at me as I compiled the list -- outside of some old timers I never knew about. He ranked 177th on my list, below such luminaries as Charlie Hough.

I just spotted why I missed Lefty Grove at #8. I failed to get his ERA+ and innings pitched merged. Lefty's ERA+ ranks in at #81 by itself, while his innings ranks by itself ranks him at #150. Silly of me! If I wasn't so tired from all that formatting, it should have struck me as quite unusual that Lefty Grove was the first player on the list without the ERA+ and innings ranks tallied up.

I'm not saying Ryan shouldn't be in the Hall, just that he's overrated, which imo, your research along with many other numbers show.

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I'm not saying Ryan shouldn't be in the Hall, just that he's overrated, which imo, your research along with many other numbers show.

I completely agree. Sure he's a Hall of Famer, but he got the 2nd highest voting percentage EVER. He's nowhere near that level.

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I completely agree. Sure he's a Hall of Famer, but he got the 2nd highest voting percentage EVER. He's nowhere near that level.

Yeah, and when we had the HOF forum on here, I recall many thinking he was one of the top few SP's ever.

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Much as I like him personally..(Yes, he's very much alive). Robin Roberts could be one of the most overrated Hall of Famers ever. Not a ton of wins, only one pennant winning team...a very solid pitcher in his era..but no way is he a legendary player.Niekro isnt far from him either.

I will say these things of Nolan Ryan...and I want you to think about this...his 5,714 strikeouts mean..get this....20 years of 270-80 strikeouts..thats every year for 20 years...now even 1 season with 250 strikeouts gets you your own island and enough money for a small third world country.

He has 7 no hitters, a slew of one hitters(a few broken up in the ninth).

He struck out both Roger Maris and Mark Mcgwire..He struck out Claudell Washington 48..thats right..48 times!!!

In short, my friends..Mr. Ryan was a freak of nature..didnt juice up like some fellow Texas pitchers who idolized him did.The juice he used was pickle juice...I swear to God.....

Didnt ever go on 60 minutes to claim he was clean..he was just flat out...freaking NASTY...

If he doesnt belong in the Hall of Fame...then neither does Mr. K..(notorious Dodger lefty).

Because the truth is..this guy was the King of K's...the most monsterous force I have ever seen in the game...I dont care how many wins or his walk ratio or his ERA's..sometimes its just this simple....He is."SCARY FILTHY!!!!!

This is an interesting analysis. I think that it also illustrates a great point about what baseball is about. As much as it is about the competition and winning and success, it's also about entertainment. It's about storylines. It's about drama.

I am as much of a stat person as anyone, and I fully agree that Nolan Ryan is overrated as a pitcher. But his mystique is what elevates him to the top tier of the HOF. He is talked about. Stories of his no-hitters are passed down generations.

The Hall of Fame is not, as many would like to say, the Hall of the Very Good to Great. If you earn fame by being the best player ever, then you meet the "fame" requirement. If you earn fame by striking everyone out and having your name whispered generations later, I believe you are still an inner-circle HOF'er, even if your stats are less inspiring than others.

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Much as I like him personally..(Yes, he's very much alive). Robin Roberts could be one of the most overrated Hall of Famers ever. Not a ton of wins, only one pennant winning team...a very solid pitcher in his era..but no way is he a legendary player.Niekro isnt far from him either.

I will say these things of Nolan Ryan...and I want you to think about this...his 5,714 strikeouts mean..get this....20 years of 270-80 strikeouts..thats every year for 20 years...now even 1 season with 250 strikeouts gets you your own island and enough money for a small third world country.

He has 7 no hitters, a slew of one hitters(a few broken up in the ninth).

He struck out both Roger Maris and Mark Mcgwire..He struck out Claudell Washington 48..thats right..48 times!!!

In short, my friends..Mr. Ryan was a freak of nature..didnt juice up like some fellow Texas pitchers who idolized him did.The juice he used was pickle juice...I swear to God.....

Didnt ever go on 60 minutes to claim he was clean..he was just flat out...freaking NASTY...

If he doesnt belong in the Hall of Fame...then neither does Mr. K..(notorious Dodger lefty).

Because the truth is..this guy was the King of K's...the most monsterous force I have ever seen in the game...I dont care how many wins or his walk ratio or his ERA's..sometimes its just this simple....He is."SCARY FILTHY!!!!!

No one is saying he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall, or that he wasn't nasty, or the king of K's. But as far as doing what's most important for a pitcher, and what leads to wins, which would be preventing runs, he wasn't nearly as good as his reputation would lead one to believe.

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This is an interesting analysis. I think that it also illustrates a great point about what baseball is about. As much as it is about the competition and winning and success, it's also about entertainment. It's about storylines. It's about drama.

I am as much of a stat person as anyone, and I fully agree that Nolan Ryan is overrated as a pitcher. But his mystique is what elevates him to the top tier of the HOF. He is talked about. Stories of his no-hitters are passed down generations.

The Hall of Fame is not, as many would like to say, the Hall of the Very Good to Great. If you earn fame by being the best player ever, then you meet the "fame" requirement. If you earn fame by striking everyone out and having your name whispered generations later, I believe you are still an inner-circle HOF'er, even if your stats are less inspiring than others.

Totally disagree with that last paragraph. I think some get too caught up in the word fame, and take it too literally. I think the purpose of the HOF is to have the best players in history honored, not the most famous. If it was most famous, there'd be a lot of guys who would have great cases who aren't in. Roger Maris, Kirk Gibson, Strawberry, Canseco, Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, etc come to mind. Guys like Bonds, Big Mac, and Clemens would be locks just as much for their involvement in the steroid controversy as their actual great play.

With Ryan, again, should be in the Hall, but if their was a tier system like I wish there was, I don't think Ryan should be in the top one, I think that should be left to the truly great all time players.

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With Ryan, again, should be in the Hall, but if their was a tier system like I wish there was, I don't think Ryan should be in the top one, I think that should be left to the truly great all time players.

Depending on how you look at it, he *is* one of the great all time players. These days, everybody says that a K is the single most valuable thing that a P can do to a hitter. And Ryan was better at that than anybody. So how you can you say that a P who was best at the single most valuable part of pitching isn't great? If some guy hit 1,200 dingers but had a mediocre BA, would you say he's not great? That's kinda like Ryan's story.

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Depending on how you look at it, he *is* one of the great all time players. These days, everybody says that a K is the single most valuable thing that a P can do to a hitter. And Ryan was better at that than anybody. So how you can you say that a P who was best at the single most valuable part of pitching isn't great? If some guy hit 1,200 dingers but had a mediocre BA, would you say he's not great? That's kinda like Ryan's story.

Because he walked more batters than the sum total of many Hall of Famers' careers. Strikeouts are great, but only in the context of a good K:BB ratio. He literally walked more batters than Steve Carlton (the #2 all-time) and Greg Maddux combined. He walked more than Bert Blyleven and Jim Palmer, combined. He walked nearly as many as Phil Niekro and Joe Niekro, two knuckleballers with very long careers, combined.

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Because he walked more batters than the sum total of many Hall of Famers' careers. Strikeouts are great, but only in the context of a good K:BB ratio. He literally walked more batters than Steve Carlton (the #2 all-time) and Greg Maddux combined. He walked more than Bert Blyleven and Jim Palmer, combined. He walked nearly as many as Phil Niekro and Joe Niekro, two knuckleballers with very long careers, combined.

Good answer.

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Because he walked more batters than the sum total of many Hall of Famers' careers. Strikeouts are great, but only in the context of a good K:BB ratio. He literally walked more batters than Steve Carlton (the #2 all-time) and Greg Maddux combined. He walked more than Bert Blyleven and Jim Palmer, combined. He walked nearly as many as Phil Niekro and Joe Niekro, two knuckleballers with very long careers, combined.

So how is that any different than what I said? Isn't that kinda like a guy who hits 1200 dingers but who can't do anything else besides K and fly out?

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So how is that any different than what I said? Isn't that kinda like a guy who hits 1200 dingers but who can't do anything else besides K and fly out?

A hitter who has 1200 homers and a .200/.220/.500 overall line isn't a great player. He's a bizarre, unique, probably impossible-in-real-life player, but not a great player.

Strikeouts are very, very important. But not to the exclusion of everything else. It's possible to do one thing exceptionally well, but other things poorly enough to greatly reduce your overall value. Kind of like Luis Hernandez and his fielding/hitting. I don't care if he has the range of Mark Belanger mated with Plasticman, he's not going to be a Hall of Famer with a .580 OPS.

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