Machado in the two hole?

[BobDylanBundy]

Couldn't disagree more... lineup protection is very overrated. In my opinion, the better hitters should be closer to the top of the lineup. Reimold being on base when Wieters and Davis are at the plate will benefit them far more than if he were in the on deck circle.

In any significant situation, who's the opposing manager going to choose to pitch to - Wieters/Davis or Pearce/Hardy? Wieters and Davis are not exactly Barry Bonds (though Wieters might be getting there against LHP), but they don't exactly have Jeff Kent behind them either. There's such a disparity in hitting ability, you are taking the bat right out of there hands whenever it matters. You can't have sub-.400 SLG guys in the #6 spot, far too easy for other teams to exploit.

[ScottieBaseball]

Couldn't disagree more... lineup protection is very overrated. In my opinion, the better hitters should be closer to the top of the lineup. Reimold being on base when Wieters and Davis are at the plate will benefit them far more than if he were in the on deck circle.

In any significant situation, who's the opposing manager going to choose to pitch to - Wieters/Davis or Pearce/Hardy? Wieters and Davis are not exactly Barry Bonds (though Wieters might be getting there against LHP), but they don't exactly have Jeff Kent behind them either. There's such a disparity in hitting ability, you are taking the bat right out of there hands whenever it matters. You can't have sub-.400 SLG guys in the #6 spot, far too easy for other teams to exploit.

While there doesn't appear to be much statistical support for "lineup protection", anyone who's played and/or managed at a high level knows that who's standing in the on-deck circle absolutely (at times) affects decisions...pitch selection/location, personnel moves, etc.

I agree that Reimold helps Wieters and Davis get pitched to at least to some degree.

[Can_of_corn]

While there doesn't appear to be much statistical support for "lineup protection", anyone who's played and/or managed at a high level knows that who's standing in the on-deck circle absolutely (at times) affects decisions...pitch selection/location, personnel moves, etc.

I agree that Reimold helps Wieters and Davis get pitched to at least to some degree.

OK let's play a game where we act like lineup protection actually works.

In order to get this benefit the O's get:

Less at bats for Reimold

Less men on base for Davis/Wieters

Is it worth it to have them "protected" or would the O's be better off just giving more at bats to the more skilled hitters?

[BobDylanBundy]

OK let's play a game where we act like lineup protection actually works.

In order to get this benefit the O's get:

Less at bats for Reimold

Less men on base for Davis/Wieters

Is it worth it to have them "protected" or would the O's be better off just giving more at bats to the more skilled hitters?

1) Davis/Wieters are base cloggers. Teams won't be afraid to pitch them junk, and furthermore a hitter behind them can use an all out power approach. Reimold would get more AB's in the #2 spot, but he'd also need to give himself up more for situation strategies that wouldn't be necessary from a power spot.

2) Reimold has a .340 OBP. Machado will probably be in the .320-.330 range. Considering Reimold hits for greater HR power, we're probably talking 4-8 more men on base for Davis/Wieters over an entire season as the difference between who's hitting in front of them.

3) Some combination of Pearce/Machado/Hardy all batting consecutively would be very exploitable by other teams.

As I said before, if the O's had Reynolds or a comparable replacement to plug in behind Wieters/Davis we could be singing a different tune. But with the current pool of hitters, Reimold is a necessity at #6 (or #5 if he's able to push down Wieters or Davis). Right now, there's just too big of a gap between the power bats and the light bats.

[Can_of_corn]

1) Davis/Wieters are base cloggers. Teams won't be afraid to pitch them junk, and furthermore a hitter behind them can use an all out power approach. Reimold would get more AB's in the #2 spot, but he'd also need to give himself up more for situation strategies that wouldn't be necessary from a power spot.

2) Reimold has a .340 OBP. Machado will probably be in the .320-.330 range. Considering Reimold hits for greater HR power, we're probably talking 4-8 more men on base for Davis/Wieters over an entire season as the difference between who's hitting in front of them.

3) Some combination of Pearce/Machado/Hardy all batting consecutively would be very exploitable by other teams.

As I said before, if the O's had Reynolds or a comparable replacement to plug in behind Wieters/Davis we could be singing a different tune. But with the current pool of hitters, Reimold is a necessity at #6 (or #5 if he's able to push down Wieters or Davis). Right now, there's just too big of a gap between the power bats and the light bats.

Joe Morgan?

[MachadOboutManny]

NL teams should bat their pitchers 2nd to get them more fastballs.

Machado is our worst hitter. As should be expected at 20 years old. He wasn't a great hitter in the minors and the 2 hole is not where he should be learning how to hit at this level. Imo, we are leading off with our two worst hitters, but Davis/Jones/Wieters are fixing those issues by themselves.

Our situational hitting has been atrocious, but the long ball has been there for us. Thank you Chris Davis, we're 0-3 without his hot start.

Batting Machado 2nd is laughably ridiculous. Joe Madden wants him there, so will every other pitcher and manager we face. Manny Machado may be the best defensive player I have seen in an Orioles uniform in my lifetime, but he is a poor major league hitter and he should be getting less ABs than anyone else. Its simple. He cant move runners, he cant do a lot of things we'd like to see in the 2 hole because he's just learning how to hit. Let him grow up, in the 8 or 9 spot, with no pressure, and let a better hitter get all these fastballs everyone is talking about.

[Can_of_corn]

NL teams should bat their pitchers 2nd to get them more fastballs.

Machado is our worst hitter. As should be expected at 20 years old. He wasn't a great hitter in the minors and the 2 hole is not where he should be learning how to hit at this level. Imo, we are leading off with our two worst hitters, but Davis/Jones/Wieters are fixing those issues by themselves.

Our situational hitting has been atrocious, but the long ball has been there for us. Thank you Chris Davis, we're 0-3 without his hot start.

Batting Machado 2nd is laughably ridiculous. Joe Madden wants him there, so will every other pitcher and manager we face. Manny Machado may be the best defensive player I have seen in an Orioles uniform in my lifetime, but he is a poor major league hitter and he should be getting less ABs than anyone else. Its simple. He cant move runners, he cant do a lot of things we'd like to see in the 2 hole because he's just learning how to hit. Let him grow up, in the 8 or 9 spot, with no pressure, and let a better hitter get all these fastballs everyone is talking about.

You do realize that as a 19 year old he put up a better OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+ then Hardy did right?

[BobDylanBundy]

Joe Morgan?

If we travel back in time 40 years and steal him out of the past, he could definitely be a solution!

Machado is our worst hitter.

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it any more of a reality. It's not like we're batting Pierce #2. The O's options really come down to Reimold or Machado, and for the reasons I stated earlier in this thread Machado 2 / Reimold 6 gives the O's a whole lot more strategic advantages than the reverse.

[Brooks The Great]

NL teams should bat their pitchers 2nd to get them more fastballs.

Machado is our worst hitter. As should be expected at 20 years old. He wasn't a great hitter in the minors and the 2 hole is not where he should be learning how to hit at this level. Imo, we are leading off with our two worst hitters, but Davis/Jones/Wieters are fixing those issues by themselves.

Our situational hitting has been atrocious, but the long ball has been there for us. Thank you Chris Davis, we're 0-3 without his hot start.

Batting Machado 2nd is laughably ridiculous. Joe Madden wants him there, so will every other pitcher and manager we face. Manny Machado may be the best defensive player I have seen in an Orioles uniform in my lifetime, but he is a poor major league hitter and he should be getting less ABs than anyone else. Its simple. He cant move runners, he cant do a lot of things we'd like to see in the 2 hole because he's just learning how to hit. Let him grow up, in the 8 or 9 spot, with no pressure, and let a better hitter get all these fastballs everyone is talking about.

100% true.

[ScottieBaseball]

OK let's play a game where we act like lineup protection actually works.

In order to get this benefit the O's get:

Less at bats for Reimold

Less men on base for Davis/Wieters

Is it worth it to have them "protected" or would the O's be better off just giving more at bats to the more skilled hitters?

Why so condescending?

I can assure you the guy standing in the on-deck circle has an effect on decisions made by the pitcher, catcher, and coaches. It's a fact. Buck Showalter has mentioned as much during post-game discussions. Meh...you're right...what's he know? I guess he's pretending lineup protection actually works, too?

[tilgaham]

I've only been able to catch a few innings live so far. Is he looking completely lost out there? What gives?

[luismatos4prez]

I've only been able to catch a few innings live so far. Is he looking completely lost out there? What gives?

He isn't awful, but he didn't look like a guy I'd want as my two hitter for now. Defensively, he is still outstanding though.

My preference was, and still is, Reimold for the two hole.

[Norfolk orioles]

On a positive note, our offense has been pretty darn good for a team getting zero production from the two hole. Just imagine if we plug someone solid into the two hole, who knows where we'd be!

Something like

Markakis

McClouth or Reimold

Jones

Davis

Wieters

Hardy

Machado

DH/Reimold/Pearce

Casilla or Flaherty

That lineup could give us some real solid production.

[Norfolk orioles]

NL teams should bat their pitchers 2nd to get them more fastballs.

Machado is our worst hitter. As should be expected at 20 years old. He wasn't a great hitter in the minors and the 2 hole is not where he should be learning how to hit at this level. Imo, we are leading off with our two worst hitters, but Davis/Jones/Wieters are fixing those issues by themselves.

Our situational hitting has been atrocious, but the long ball has been there for us. Thank you Chris Davis, we're 0-3 without his hot start.

Batting Machado 2nd is laughably ridiculous. Joe Madden wants him there, so will every other pitcher and manager we face. Manny Machado may be the best defensive player I have seen in an Orioles uniform in my lifetime, but he is a poor major league hitter and he should be getting less ABs than anyone else. Its simple. He cant move runners, he cant do a lot of things we'd like to see in the 2 hole because he's just learning how to hit. Let him grow up, in the 8 or 9 spot, with no pressure, and let a better hitter get all these fastballs everyone is talking about.

Agree with this completely.

It doesn't make any sense to throw manny into the fire this early in the season.

Let him get at least one full season of playing time in before batting him in such an important spot.

In other words, about 2/3 of the way through this season, re-evaluate where he is and maybe then make the move but for now, just let him adjust to major league pitching, which is hard enough in and of itself at 20 years old, without the added pressure of needing to get on base and show great pitch selection.

I'm sorry, but he isn't trout or Harper....at least not yet. Let the kid play without the undue pressure.

[Can_of_corn]

Why so condescending?

I can assure you the guy standing in the on-deck circle has an effect on decisions made by the pitcher, catcher, and coaches. It's a fact. Buck Showalter has mentioned as much during post-game discussions. Meh...you're right...what's he know? I guess he's pretending lineup protection actually works, too?

You ever hear the story about the Scorpion and the Crocodile?

You know what else was fact for 100+ years? That upper echelon pitchers could regularly induce weak contact. Then Voros McCracken came along.

Buck and the others can have all the faith in lineup protection that they want. Until I see evidence that is provides anything more then a tertiary benefit I will not be sitting on the pew with them.