TT: Gausman's time will come, but it's not now

[Tony-OH]

I just don't see how his fastball is a plus pitch? He can't pitch to the corners, and its straight as an arrow, there is no movement on it whatsoever, and nobody had any issue hitting the 97. It would appear that they see the fastball really well out of his hand, he couldn't get 97-99 by anyone.

I disagree. Pitch Fx has him between 1 and ten inches of horizontal movement on his fastball (avg 6.85)

I've seen plenty of life on his fastball. His fastball issues have been command related for the most part, but I will say though that batters do tend to pick up his fastball. He garnered just 3.92% whiffs and batters are hitting .385 off 102 fastballs in his two starts. I still think it's been because he's been behind too often and have ended up grooving fastballs more than a lack of movement.

[Kerry]

I don't think there is a two-pitch TOR. By the very definition a TOR (Number one starter) needs three pitches:

There have been a few...but very few. Nolan Ryan was a two-pitch pitcher for most of his career. Randy Johnson was too, for a long time, well into the part of his career when he was dominant. Dwight Gooden was too (he tried to add a straight change after a few years, but it never amounted to much). These are, however, the exceptions to the rule.

[Tony-OH]

There have been a few...but very few. Nolan Ryan was a two-pitch pitcher for most of his career. Randy Johnson was too, for a long time, well into the part of his career when he was dominant. Dwight Gooden was too (he tried to add a straight change after a few years, but it never amounted to much). These are, however, the exceptions to the rule.

Ok, I can accept that there may have been rare two-pitch TORs, but are there any pitching now? I probably should have finished that first sentence with, "...pitching currently."

[webbrick2010]

That's a long time and i don't disagree in that there's a history of problems when it comes to developing pitchers. BUT the current organization is doing better. Chris Tillman would probably not have had success with this team 5-10 years ago. Jason Hammel would not have been acquired, or turned into at least a solid #2 starter. How about Patton? McFarland? Hunter? These guys werent' thought of as strong performers in other organizations, but found success here. Something is working, and I think it's time to cast away those old issues and have some more faith- like the O's fans used to have (if anyone else is old enough to remember them that is). Good times are ahead. :boogie:

Your making my argument stronger. Everyone you mentioned was acquired. The O's have shown an almost statistically impossible lack of success in drafting pitching. Present Staff

Hammel : Acquired

Chen : Acquired

Tillman : Acquired

Gonzalez : Acquired

Garcia : Acquired

Patton : Acquired

Hunter : Acquired

McFarland : Acquired

Johnson : Drafted

O'Day : Acquired

Matusz : Drafted

Arrietta : Drafted

Strop : Acquired

What's that 3 out of 13 on the pitching staff came via the draft, and this from a team that has picked pitchers in the top 5, like 4 of the last 8 years

And the positional players aren't much better. Only Wieters, Markakis, and Manny are O's picks.

Only McPhails wizadry with trades has put the O's on the map.

[Norfolk orioles]

The statement about "not needing a slider" is troubling.

I also don't understand why we'd tell Bundy to stop throwing his best pitch, his cutter. I know why they asked him too, they want him to develop other pitches, that's fine and I get that. But at the same time, he should be working off his best pitch, not abandoning it completely. What if he decides to start throwing it again when he gets back to the majors and it just isn't as sharp or he's lost some control over it?

It might be the exact same as before but I don't understand the strategy of abandoning it completely. Work all your pitches into a game and then you'll establish consistency with using/having a pitching repertoire.

Our ability to develop minor league prospects into major league pitchers is disheartening to say the least. It also says quite a bit that they'd bring a kid up before he's ready because we are so desperate for starting pitching because none of matusz/Britton/arrieta have worked out as starters.

I think Gausman needs to go back down and work on that slider as well and, like tony said, he needs to develop the ability to throw the change up to both sides of the plate. He also needs to work on fastball location. What he doesn't need is to be a sacrificial lamb to the Detroit tigers.

That doesn't help him or the team.

[Hallas]

I don't think there is a two-pitch TOR. By the very definition a TOR (Number one starter) needs three pitches:

- Two plus pitches

- Average third pitch

- Plus/plus command

- Plus makeup

Gausman has the potential for all of these, but right now, he has one plus pitch (fastball), average change up (due to inconsistent command), and a below average slider. His Command is below average in his two major league starts. We don't know enough about his makeup to determine it yet. His changeup has plus potential and his fastball has plus-plus potential if he can command it better. The slider could be average if he can become more consistent with less flat ones.

He has all the makings of a TOR, but he's just not there yet.

Do sinkerballers count? A lot of them are sinker/slider guys with ++ command of both.

[CA-ORIOLE]

How do you know it was rhetoric? I watched some of his Bowie starts and it did look like he kept he ball down mostly. Isn't it possible that he's getting the ball up at the ML level more than he did in AA? Perhaps just from being a little amped up? I don't know the answer. Just saying A+B doesn't always equal C.

Maybe. Rhetoric doesn't mean it's a lie. In this case it (the ability to keep the ball down) was pretty heavily emphasized as rational to bring this particular pitcher up at this particular time. I just haven't seen have seen any indication he has that skill in his two starts. Lets say what I'm seeing doesn't come close to matching the rhetoric so far.

[sfosfan]

Your making my argument stronger. Everyone you mentioned was acquired. The O's have shown an almost statistically impossible lack of success in drafting pitching. Present Staff

Hammel : Acquired

Chen : Acquired

Tillman : Acquired

Gonzalez : Acquired

Garcia : Acquired

Patton : Acquired

Hunter : Acquired

McFarland : Acquired

Johnson : Drafted

O'Day : Acquired

Matusz : Drafted

Arrietta : Drafted

Strop : Acquired

What's that 3 out of 13 on the pitching staff came via the draft, and this from a team that has picked pitchers in the top 5, like 4 of the last 8 years

And the positional players aren't much better. Only Wieters, Markakis, and Manny are O's picks.

Only McPhails wizadry with trades has put the O's on the map.

Yes, great note. BUT they are doing better HERE NOW. Some credit for the change has to go to the org changes the last few years. Confidence has to start somewhere, and now's the time.

[weams]

Your making my argument stronger. Everyone you mentioned was acquired. The O's have shown an almost statistically impossible lack of success in drafting pitching. Present Staff

Hammel : Acquired

Chen : Acquired

Tillman : Acquired

Gonzalez : Acquired

Garcia : Acquired

Patton : Acquired

Hunter : Acquired

McFarland : Acquired

Johnson : Drafted

O'Day : Acquired

Matusz : Drafted

Arrietta : Drafted

Strop : Acquired

What's that 3 out of 13 on the pitching staff came via the draft, and this from a team that has picked pitchers in the top 5, like 4 of the last 8 years

And the positional players aren't much better. Only Wieters, Markakis, and Manny are O's picks.

Only McPhails wizadry with trades has put the O's on the map.

We get it. The people running the team, making the picks, developing the talent, and counting the cash were all inferior for 14 years. This ain't them.

[Malike]

I disagree. Pitch Fx has him between 1 and ten inches of horizontal movement on his fastball (avg 6.85)

I've seen plenty of life on his fastball. His fastball issues have been command related for the most part, but I will say though that batters do tend to pick up his fastball. He garnered just 3.92% whiffs and batters are hitting .385 off 102 fastballs in his two starts. I still think it's been because he's been behind too often and have ended up grooving fastballs more than a lack of movement.

Thanks for the chart. His FB seems to move when he throws it 93-95 and seems to be straight when he runs at 97+. I don't have time but I want to check the velocity in that chart later.

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[NickM21]

I feel like he must have been tipping his pitches or something last night. Even the pitches that I'd expect to get a swing and miss didn't. He only had a I believe 3 swing and misses the whole game. For someone with 97+ heat and the nasty change that isn't right. Granted he throw plenty of pitches right in the middle of the plate, so that didn't help the cause.

[Stotle]

Thanks for the chart. His FB seems to move when he throws it 93-95 and seems to be straight when he runs at 97+. I don't have time but I want to check the velocity in that chart later.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

He throws a 4S, which is higher velo and straighter, and a 2S, which is lower velo with more life.

[SteveA]

One thing I came away with after watching Kevin make two starts: a greater appreciation for Chris Tillman. As Buck said, Kevin is facing the best hitters in the world. Everyone at this level can hit fastballs and you have to earn their respect by throwing other pitches for strikes. Guys like Kevin, Chris and Jake can live off their fastballs at every other level- just not this one. Tillman got knocked around at first, and even now will struggle to go 7 innings constistently, but he's not getting knocked around like before. Good for Kevin to go out there, get beat up and not let it affect his attitude or confidence in any way. Kevin will learn his adjustments through hard work, just like Chris. You can tell Kevin is on his way by his attitude. Unlike Jake who can still give you the deer in the headlights look in a post game interview, Kevin looks like he's always thinking. This kid is going to be huge!

You had to go there.

[Tony-OH]

Thanks for the chart. His FB seems to move when he throws it 93-95 and seems to be straight when he runs at 97+. I don't have time but I want to check the velocity in that chart later.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Most likely the difference between the two seam and four seam fastball.

[Malike]

Most likely the difference between the two seam and four seam fastball.

He throws a 4S, which is higher velo and straighter, and a 2S, which is lower velo with more life.

That would explain what I'm seeing. I'm interested in seeing the movement on the 4S. It looks really straight to me. I'm going to check pitchFX later. Thanks Tony and Nick.