Joey Votto Critical of Davis Saying the HR Record Is 61

[SeaBird]

Davis may be taking a no win position, but I will offer this, what would the game be like today if more players openly criticized players for cheating when steroids first come into use. I think it is a no win position because nothing will change Bond's numbers, or anyone elses for that matter. But if more players had taken Davis' stand, or more fan's, or baseball executives.....the game would be better for it.

I just posted over in the MLB forum how players want Braun run out of baseball. Maybe the players really do want a fair and even playing field. This quote is from Buster Olney:

"They want him taken down if in fact there is evidence he used PEDs. The players have a strong sentiment about that. They want him taken down so badly. Every clubhouse I go into, players are asking me about him. They were furious after he won his appeal because they thought it was ridiculous based on the information they had gotten. Players were appalled about the way that he talked about the collector...They look at him as a guy that has been a disgrace to the sport. And if in fact the evidence backs up what seems to be alleged here, they want him out of the sport."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/mlb-players-mad-at-ryan-braun-and-want-him-to-go-down-2013-7#ixzz2ZJJQ7FS0

[waroriole]

Are you serious? Do you really not see the ramifications of allowing steroid use in baseball? How about the guys forced to take them in order to compete if they were made legal in MLB? The game is better game without the juiced up Bonds, McGwire and Sosa-type of freaks.

Good point. I think Bonds is sort of in that group, as all the reports had him clean until he got angry about McGwire and Sosa stealing all the attention when Bonds was the much better player. My problem is with folks who vilify all those guys and act as though everyone who came before them would never do anything to gain an advantage. Obviously, the sport is better off without PED, but if like to get rid of the double standard.

[blid]

If Bonds ever admitted to knowingly using steroids, I would like to see his record erased. Until that time, it is the official record, so be it.

Well, he admitted to using them unknowingly, but I notice you slipped the word "knowingly" in there. Why does that determine your decision about whether his record should be erased? If he admitted to using performance enhancers, and he set the record using them, then isn't that record equally tainted whether he knew he was using or not? Of course he knew, by the way, but I know everyone remembers his "flaxseed oil" excuse.

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

Am I the only one here who believes Davis is spot on with his remarks, and that Votto is not only wrong, but DEAD wrong with his idiotic comments? I mean cmon, if the juiced up Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Cansenco, Palmerio, Clemens, Giambi, Aroid and all those of that era are blocked from the HOF, why the heck should their home run records be considered legit?

No you are not the only one, and thank you, thank you, thank you. If they are going to keep them out of the Hall, then you can certainly blot out the records (at the very least, an asterisk).

I'm surprised at the very passive quotes by many of "the ball went over the fence, so it counts." Maybe people are just being nice to Bonds to the media? Yes he was a great player, but what he did in his AGE 37 seems completely unnatural, and it's all but proven that IT WAS.

There should absolutely be a definition of steroids versus non steroids and perhaps if MLB doesn't want to do anything about it, it will just have to be handed down orally by us fans. And perhaps that's good enough, because there's no way you can reasonably talk about Bonds/McGwire/Sosa without mentioning steroids. If other "clean" guys had broken the record, I wouldn't be as vehement. Just shows how hard it is to do "naturally" as Zobrist said.

[Aristotelian]

Well, he admitted to using them unknowingly, but I notice you slipped the word "knowingly" in there. Why does that determine your decision about whether his record should be erased? If he admitted to using performance enhancers, and he set the record using them, then isn't that record equally tainted whether he knew he was using or not? Of course he knew, by the way, but I know everyone remembers his "flaxseed oil" excuse.

He admitted to using "cream" and "clear". I don't think he has admitted that they were steroids, or that anybody has proven it. I don't believe him for a second, but until there is some hard evidence that he cheated, MLB cannot wipe out his stats and the record will stand.

[Aristotelian]

Bonds never failed one that was permitted to be disclosed. The Mitchell report and the Balco investigation and his own guilty verdict are all indicative of the fact that he did fail at least two tests.

He was found guilty of obstruction, nothing else.

[Redskins Rick]

He was found guilty of obstruction, nothing else.

He should have been found guilty of perjury too, for that matter.

[weams]

He was found guilty of obstruction, nothing else.

And the obstuction was for what reason? Because he was a good clean fellow who did not use Balco's PEDs? His trainer spent two years in jail to keep Barry out. Wonder what that cost?

[ExileAngelos]

Has anyone, including Votto, taken a moment to consider that Davis' opinion doesn't necessarily have to be a slight against the cheaters but a show of respect and admiration to those who did it clean?

[Aristotelian]

And the obstuction was for what reason? Because he was a good clean fellow who did not use Balco's PEDs? His trainer spent two years in jail to keep Barry out. Wonder what that cost?

I agree with you...Bonds is a scumbag and everybody knows he cheated. But until it is proven definitively or he admits it, I don't see how MLB can or should take away his stats. If that happens, then I would not be surprised to see MLB take some action, and I would completely support it.

[blid]

He admitted to using "cream" and "clear". I don't think he has admitted that they were steroids, or that anybody has proven it. I don't believe him for a second, but until there is some hard evidence that he cheated, MLB cannot wipe out his stats and the record will stand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_cream

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_clear

We know he took it, we know it's a steroid, the prosecution just wasn't able to prove he "knowingly" took it. But he is on the record as a user of a steroid.

[Old#5fan]

I agree with you...Bonds is a scumbag and everybody knows he cheated. But until it is proven definitively or he admits it, I don't see how MLB can or should take away his stats. If that happens, then I would not be surprised to see MLB take some action, and I would completely support it.

How can they keep him out of the HOF then? You can't have a double standard IMHO. If he's blackballed from the HOF then his stats should be designated as tainted by steriods with an asterik which explains why he is not in the HOF. Same with McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Clemens, et al.

[Redskins Rick]

There are two sides to this. One side is he cheated and the other is, he did what he had to do.

Neither side is going to convince the other, and everything that can be said, has been said.

So can we just call it a day on this thread and move on to other topics (In other threads of course)?

[Riggodrill44]

I think Chris Davis should stop it with this "61" is the record talk. There is no way to go back and change anything that happened.

This whole taking away Bonds, Sosa, McGuire's and anyone else's record is complete idiocy. How could you separate clean from foul? He hit 2 homers off of this guy but he hadn't started to juice yet and the pitcher was juicing??? What a mess. All we are left with is IT HAPPEND. Record it and move on.

[BohKnowsBmore]

Has anyone, including Votto, taken a moment to consider that Davis' opinion doesn't necessarily have to be a slight against the cheaters but a show of respect and admiration to those who did it clean?

I think this is a very good point.