I can't believe Buck pushed Chen that far again

[russ snyder]

I was a bit surprised as well. However, I think that Buck's move was more about showing confidence in Chen than anything else. After the tough game against the Royals, I think he wanted to give him an opportunity to get through the eighth inning last night.

[Tx Oriole]

Nobody did, horrible call.

Good golly folks. The O's won the game. I don't know how many he pitched. I

haven't looked it up yet. But it seems like some complain if a pitcher doesn't go

seven innings at least. Maybe Buck wanted to rest the BP letting him pitch that

long. Just throwing some ideas out there.

[Tx Oriole]

I prefer to question the manager's decisions when they work out, since nobody can accuse me of second guessing him based on a bad result. Good result does not necessarily mean good decision

You do have a right to question Buck. To me Frobby if it worked

out then how can that be a bad decision?

O

[big_sparxx]

Didn't Buck address this the other day talking about it not being early in the season and that they should be ready to extend themselves? This is the time where we need our starters to work and save the bullpen for the stretch run.

More worrying from last night is that we managed only 3 hits. We can't count on being lucky enough to cash in on walks.

Very concerning indeed.

[soxhotcorner14]

I had the same reaction as most of you did. But we all need to take a step back and realize how our manager handles players mentally. If it isn't apparent to most, Buck will put players back in the same situations they failed in for them to have the opportunity to overcome adversity they've experienced. Honestly, you have to see what kind of mettle your players have. You saw it with how he handled Johnson, Strop and now Davis. That's why a lot of these guys love playing with Buck. He doesn't give up on you if you have a bad outing, game, hitting etc.

Yeah, to us the general fan it looks insane.. but there is much more to it to managing a team than writing out a lineup card.

[Frobby]

I had the same reaction as most of you did. But we all need to take a step back and realize how our manager handles players mentally. If it isn't apparent to most, Buck will put players back in the same situations they failed in for them to have the opportunity to overcome adversity they've experienced. Honestly, you have to see what kind of mettle your players have. You saw it with how he handled Johnson, Strop and now Davis. That's why a lot of these guys love playing with Buck. He doesn't give up on you if you have a bad outing, game, hitting etc.

Yeah, to us the general fan it looks insane.. but there is much more to it to managing a team than writing out a lineup card.

I agree with your overall point here. Buck likes to show his guys he has confidence in them even after they've failed, and that helps get him long term results from his players.

I get the philosophy, in fact, I agree with it. I just thought Buck pushed it too far last night. But he got away with it.

[soxhotcorner14]

I just thought Buck pushed it too far last night. But he got away with it.

And I agree with that. I think allowing Chen to get through the 7th would of been enough for me. When I saw him trotted out there for the 8th I turned into the Incredible Hulk LOL

[primetime]

I prefer to question the manager's decisions when they work out, since nobody can accuse me of second guessing him based on a bad result. Good result does not necessarily mean good decision

This is 100% correct.

I did hear Buck's reasoning in the post game about how taking an effective starter out can "change the karma of a game", and I can understand that to a point. However, we just this movie last week in KC and quite frankly the ending sucked.

Chen pitched really well, the 3rd inning was very flukey. That said, with 7 IP and at 106 pitches, it's time to go to your fully loaded pen to get those last 6 outs.

[Malike]

You would have thought that Chen was left in there for 150 pitches. When I get time, I'm going to look up his pitch counts in Japan. He had an extra days rest this turn, and I'm not going to freak out about a 5 inning sample of him pitching 7-9 innings. I also don't believe that throwing 119 pitches ruined him arm for his next start. It appears Chen has the reputation of a fragile or frail pitcher. He's not a 20 year old prospect, he's a veteran professional pitcher.

[Frobby]

You would have thought that Chen was left in there for 150 pitches. When I get time, I'm going to look up his pitch counts in Japan. He had an extra days rest this turn, and I'm not going to freak out about a 5 inning sample of him pitching 7-9 innings. I also don't believe that throwing 119 pitches ruined him arm for his next start. It appears Chen has the reputation of a fragile or frail pitcher. He's not a 20 year old prospect, he's a veteran professional pitcher.

I want to make my own position on this clear: this is not mostly about pitch counts for me. For me, Chen struggled at the end of the 7th inning, and when Buck brought him out for the 8th, he was getting his pitches up. He was missing his spots in a way he wasn't earlier in the game. If that wasn't happening, I would have been far less concerned with his pitch count. But he looked tired. He was literally huffing and puffing during the last at bat.

[VeveJones007]

I had the same reaction as most of you did. But we all need to take a step back and realize how our manager handles players mentally. If it isn't apparent to most, Buck will put players back in the same situations they failed in for them to have the opportunity to overcome adversity they've experienced. Honestly, you have to see what kind of mettle your players have. You saw it with how he handled Johnson, Strop and now Davis. That's why a lot of these guys love playing with Buck. He doesn't give up on you if you have a bad outing, game, hitting etc.

Yeah, to us the general fan it looks insane.. but there is much more to it to managing a team than writing out a lineup card.

For me, the same situation was 2 outs in the 7th with the tying run at 2nd and Chen at 105 pitches. No need to push the point home any further.

[CanadianOriole]

You do have a right to question Buck. To me Frobby if it worked

out then how can that be a bad decision?

O

If I take my mortgage payment to Vegas - bet it all on number 36 on the roulette wheel and it hits -is my thinking to gamble my family's home on a roulette spin a good decision? It worked - but it wasn't the optimum thing to do. My example is hyperbole of course - but it was crazy to send Chen back out with the number of pitches he had thrown, his having just escaped the 2-out double in the 7th, the fact that he got lit up in the exact same situation his previous start, and the fleet of arms available to mix and match in the pen. It did work - but only because O'Day was able to dodge the tieing run on base.

Great outing by Chen - don't want to dwell on the negative - just a curious move that bears discussing.

[VeveJones007]

I want to make my own position on this clear: this is not mostly about pitch counts for me. For me, Chen struggled at the end of the 7th inning, and when Buck brought him out for the 8th, he was getting his pitches up. He was missing his spots in a way he wasn't earlier in the game. If that wasn't happening, I would have been far less concerned with his pitch count. But he looked tired. He was literally huffing and puffing during the last at bat.

Which is why the risk of injury for pitchers goes up considerably after 100 pitches, 110 pitches, etc. It's silly to risk the team's best pitcher in a pennant race for 2-3 more outs against the Astros when you have a good, rested bullpen.

[Tony-OH]

Complaints about Buck when we lose, I get it. When we win? I don't. Whatever.

Well, then you don't understand this board and the good analytical posters we have here. Just because Buck makes a move that works does not make it a good move. Buck seems to be pushing Chen and his other starters for little reason. He has a fresh bullpen with O'day and F-Rod ready to go. He had a one run lead and Chen had already given him seven solid innings. This season alone batters put up a .318/.348/.591/.939 line against Chen in the 7th inning and .375/.375/.750/1.125 in the 8th inning. After 100 pitches batters are hitting .500/.500/1.167/1.667 off Chen. Chen was at 106 pitches after the 7th inning.

On top of it, you need to use your relievers in order to keep them sharp. F-rod hasn't been used since Saturday, O'day since LAST Wednesday, and Hunter since Sunday. There was no good reason to extend Chen into the 8th. Chen of course gave up the leadoff single in the 8th that eventually got into scoring position after stealing for of O'day. There is just no good reason for Buck to extend Chen into that 8th inning, none. It might have worked because O'day was able to strand Chen's guy at second, but just because it ended up working out does not mean it was a smart move.

I like Buck overall, but his bullpen management of late is really a head scratcher.

[Tony-OH]

To me and definitely not only to me, he (Buck) was flirting with unspeakable disaster for the club's morale - I think the club has sort of been reeling since the last outing Chen had to be quite honest.

I don't understand the logic; it's way above and beyond me.

This is actually a great point. This club was reeling losing five of it's last six games. Had the Astros tied up that ball game off of Chen in the 8th, it would have been an utter disaster for morale, for everyone! If the Orioles were up by three or more runs then I probably would not of had a huge issue with Chen starting the 8th (though I still would have pitched O'day because he hasn't pitched since last Wednesday), but starting your starter in the 8th in a one run ball game when he's at 106 pitches, and when the stats say he doesn't pitch well past 100 pitches is pretty risky if you ask me.

Even the strike out that ended his night was lucky. Wieters was set outside and Chen threw a fastball right down the middle of the plate that the batter luckily swang through. I'll take it but that location is not going to work very often. Batters will tell you more than your eye whether a pitcher has lost it and their .500 batting average against him after 100 pitches this year tells me all I need to know. He needs to be out shortly after 100 pitches in one-run ball games.