Adam Jones continues to have some of the most absurd ABs of all time

[Babypowder]

I hate the idea that so-and-so "should" or "could" be a great player if only they'd fix this one thing. If only Cal had hit .320 every year he'd be the greatest player who ever lived. If only Alan Trammell had hit 30 homers a year he'd be a shoo-in in Cooperstown. If only Strop would make a little mechanical adjustment and stick with it he'd throw strikes and be Mariano Rivera.

There is no could or should, there just is. I'll never assume that a guy playing MLB is ignoring advice and pretending he doesn't have an obvious flaw because of whatever, it's almost always that he's unable to correct what's wrong.

I agree with all of this. Adam Jones was always going to be this kind of hitter. I personally am frustrated because he seems to be regressing. I was merely pointing out where most of posters frustrations about him are coming from. He has one glaring flaw that keeps him from becoming a good player, it's true. It's also a flaw he and many others before him had and were unable to fix because generally it's a talent you either have or do not have.

Although Jones and other players have been pretty indignant about it being a flaw at all, I have to think they really do understand it is a problem and try to work at it. At this level, players don't develop skills they never had.

[Redskins Rick]

I agree with all of this. Adam Jones was always going to be this kind of hitter. I personally am frustrated because he seems to be regressing. I was merely pointing out where most of posters frustrations about him are coming from. He has one glaring flaw that keeps him from becoming a good player, it's true. It's also a flaw he and many others before him had and were unable to fix because generally it's a talent you either have or do not have.

Although Jones and other players have been pretty indignant about it being a flaw at all, I have to think they really do understand it is a problem and try to work at it. At this level, players don't develop skills they never had.

batting .292, and we talk about flaws and over analysis his game.

damn, wish I could hit .292 against big league pitching.

[Flash- bd]

I hate the idea that so-and-so "should" or "could" be a great player if only they'd fix this one thing. If only Cal had hit .320 every year he'd be the greatest player who ever lived. If only Alan Trammell had hit 30 homers a year he'd be a shoo-in in Cooperstown. If only Strop would make a little mechanical adjustment and stick with it he'd throw strikes and be Mariano Rivera.

There is no could or should, there just is. I'll never assume that a guy playing MLB is ignoring advice and pretending he doesn't have an obvious flaw because of whatever, it's almost always that he's unable to correct what's wrong.

Heh, I was just waiting to come upon a Drungo post in this thread setting people straight about the "if he could only do this, then he would be this" issue. It was inevitable.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who used to say back in high school: man, if I was 7 feet, I would be so much better than Shaq.

Drungo, I think you really need to have some kind of handbook published on the top of the page here on Orioles Hangout, something like a shorthand to Drungo. It would save you time. Instead of having to make a post like that over and over again you could just say: refer to Drungo rule 41.C. Or any time someone posts a stinker by a pitcher and says something like, "a real ace doesn't get lit up like this", you could just say refer to rule 27.A, and there would be listed sundry examples of stinkers posted by unquestionable aces every year of their career, from Verlander to Nolan Ryan.

[Babypowder]

batting .292, and we talk about flaws and over analysis his game.

damn, wish I could hit .292 against big league pitching.

And despite hitting .292 he makes outs like a league average hitter. That is a flaw. Batting average doesn't mean much on it's own.

[Redskins Rick]

And despite hitting .292 he makes outs like a league average hitter. That is a flaw. Batting average doesn't mean much on it's own.

So being voted to the ASG was a fluke, since he is just average ball player?

[Babypowder]

So being voted to the ASG was a fluke, since he is just average ball player?

Where did I say that? I am saying that just because someone is hitting .292 doesn't mean they aren't a flawed hitter. Adam Jones has a decent batting average, but he gets on base at a league average clip. That's a fact, and is all I said.

[Redskins Rick]

Where did I say that? I am saying that just because someone is hitting .292 doesn't mean they aren't a flawed hitter. Adam Jones has a decent batting average, but he gets on base at a league average clip. That's a fact, and is all I said.

sorry, I thought you were saying he is just an average hitter.

[Frobby]

This is where I completely disagree. I don't think he has the talent, mostly the physical ability, the hand-eye coordination and eyesight, etc, to discern a ball down the middle from an outside slider with any consistency. He has a ton of other skills that are off the chart, but it's not "a few simple adjustments." I think it's totally ridiculous to think that he could be among the very best players in the world, if not for refusing to make a few simple adjustments.

I tend to agree with you. Different players have different skills and flaws. Some people have a better ability to recognize pitches, and it's not just a matter of study and discipline, it's an actual ability (at least, to some extent). I do think Jones could probably learn to be more discerning in certain counts when it is highly likely that the pitcher is going to throw the ball out of the strike zone, and just accept that every so often he'll fail to swing at a good pitch and strike out looking. He's only struck out looking 3 times all year, which is extraordinarily low.

[Babypowder]

Okay, let's just go with this "guy is what he is". That's the easy way. Let's forget that J.J. Hardy went from a total pull hitter who could only defensively put the ball onto the right side of the field, to this year, where he actually has driven the ball to RF, and improved. Let's ignore that Chris Davis has one a better job of laying off the low pitches in the dirt and the high fastballs out of the zone. That's the easy thing to do, just accept that players can't do things or change things to improve themselves.

Adam Jones has trouble with pitch recognition. That's not something he can improve on. When he consciously makes the choice to be aggressive and take a vicious hack on the first pitch, he sets himself up to swing at bad pitches and get behind in the count. That's something he can control. He can control how long a swing he takes and how hard a swing he takes. He can control if he's going to try and take an outer half pitch to RF or if he's going to try and pull it. You can accept that he's going to do what he's going to do, so don't worry about it, but I'm not gonna do it. It might not help. It certainly won't change anything but I'm going to continue to feel that Adam Jones does have some control over whether he can be a good hitter as a hacker or a really good hitter with a little more discipline and a better approach. He's done it in stretches. He hits a few homers and he decides that he's going to hack away again. He's happy being a hacker. It's unfortunate that someone can't get his attention and tell him he shouldn't be satisfied with what he is. When interviewed a few weeks ago, he joked "A plan? Well I go up there and hack away. I guess you could call that a plan". Pretty funny but also pretty sad that he knows what he is and is happy with it. He could be better. He has the talent to be better. He has to WANT it, more. JMO

He did this in April and May but has pretty much been the hacker he's been previously since then. The jury is still out there.

As for the second part, that is a definite gripe. It saddens me that Jones has seemed to take the Jeff Francouer and Brandon Phillips attitude about his discipline. It's in the air whether or not he even recognizes it as a flaw in his game to me. Even with that said, plate discipline/pitch recognition is not generally a skill players can make drastic improvements upon so it might not matter.

[UpstateNYfan]

The 2nd AB against San Diego was quite the "hack". Followed by an absurd AB by Davis.

[Three Run Homer]

Very nice at bat in the first tonight--fell behind 0-2 by swinging on sliders outside the zone, but battled back, refused to bite on any more pitches down and away and wound up getting an RBI single.

[Emory Eagle]

I hate the idea that so-and-so "should" or "could" be a great player if only they'd fix this one thing. If only Cal had hit .320 every year he'd be the greatest player who ever lived. If only Alan Trammell had hit 30 homers a year he'd be a shoo-in in Cooperstown. If only Strop would make a little mechanical adjustment and stick with it he'd throw strikes and be Mariano Rivera.

There is no could or should, there just is. I'll never assume that a guy playing MLB is ignoring advice and pretending he doesn't have an obvious flaw because of whatever, it's almost always that he's unable to correct what's wrong.

It must be a bit more complicated than that. If you introduced modern weight training exercises, hand-eye coordination drills, dietary regimes, and video-study to 19th century baseball players, their play would improve (in an absolute fashion in terms of performance, even if you take a zero-sum outcomes-oriented approach). Certainly, the voluntary behavior of the players (various aforementioned training methods, taking BP, not drinking the night before a game, etc.) has an effect on their performance.

I'm not at all familiar with the subject matter, but is there any precedent for players' improving their "patience skills," though proxies like OBP or what have you, during their MLB careers? Even an absence of such evidence isn't a statement of certainty that nothing can be done.

However, it would be enough to convince me that threads harping about Jones' impatience are rather pointless. (I reserve the right to complain about such things in the game threads however, that's what they're for!).

This is starting to remind me of the Efficient Market Hypothesis.

[OrangeJerseys]

4-4 tonight.

[Emory Eagle]

I suppose I could (overly simplistically) break my argument down like this: (1) players' voluntary behavior affects their performance (positively or negatively); (2) voluntary behavior can be changed; thus, (3) players can change their performance (positively or negatively).

The question becomes whether Adam Jones plate discipline is either: (a) behavior that is voluntary (i.e. subject to change) or (b) voluntary behavior that can be improved.

I'm not sold on the idea that it's not improvable. But, as I said above, I could be convinced.

[Capn Vivi]

I'll just say this about Adam Jones' approach:

He could have taken Ball 4 in the first inning today to put runnings on the corners with two outs, but instead, he weakly hit a seeing eye grounder that barely escaped the infield to drive in his first run of the game.

I'll take AJ just the way he is, I like his aggressive approach, even if it does bite this team in the butt from time to time.