Jump to content

Adam Jones voted 2d best defensive outfielder in the AL by AL Managers


wildcard

Recommended Posts

Yes, and we know that Buck was right that Hardy was the best number 2 hitter all last year, Taylor Tegarden is a fine backup catcher who would be starting for many teams if not for his injury issues and Brian Roberts doesn't need a late inning defensive replacement.

How can anyone not understand that Buck is an openly and brutally honest evaluator of talent regardless of his personal relationships with his players. Pretty unfathomable really.

And who would you have hit 2nd instead of Hardy? Buck has said that Hardy's OBP did not make him a ideal candidate but he was the best he had at the time. Buck values Teagarden's game calling and defense which are pretty good traits for a backup catcher to a horse like Wieters. How many games have the O's lost because of Roberts late inning defense? I can't recall any but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As far as evaluating talent, Buck said he watched a lot of film on Bud Norris before they traded for him. I doubt the O's would have traded for him if Buck was against the trade. Buck is one of the main decision makers on the O's. Nobody is right all the time but the O's are a better team with him than they were before he arrived.

If you are going to pick at Buck for his evaluation skills and decision making, I think you picked a losing battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 108
  • Created
  • Last Reply
The ole "eye test". :)

But, I do agree with you on what you said.

There has been some talk of a professional scouting rating "system" on the horizon. In that case it'd be much more than the old eye test I think and I'd be very interested to see how it matches up to some of the metrics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And who would you have hit 2nd instead of Hardy? Buck has said that Hardy's OBP did not make him a ideal candidate but he was the best he had at the time. Buck values Teagarden's game calling and defense which are pretty good traits for a backup catcher to a horse like Wieters. How many games have the O's lost because of Roberts late inning defense? I can't recall any but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Hardy would have been fine batting second against LHP, Betemit would have been a good choice against RHP, but you can practically pick any other starter on the team quite frankly.

I don't care how good Buck thinks TT's game calling is, it's ridiculous for him to state that he thinks he could be a starter on another team and it's ridiculous not to pull Roberts for a late inning defensive replacement (whether it's cost us or not).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are going to pick at Buck for his evaluation skills and decision making, I think you picked a losing battle.

And you're not going to win many battles if you keep going to the "Buck is a good manager so he must be right" card. Especially when the moves he makes don't make a lot of objective sense and the outsider's consensus is that he's smart enough to know that's not the best solution performance-wise so he must be doing this for political, clubhouse-type reasons.

Buck is a very good manager, but even the best have weaknesses and blind spots and areas where they choose to do non-optimal things for alterior motives like keeping the team bought into his vision. It's silly to think we're not going to point those out and ask why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And you're not going to win many battles if you keep going to the "Buck is a good manager so he must be right" card. Especially when the moves he makes don't make a lot of objective sense and the outsider's consensus is that he's smart enough to know that's not the best solution performance-wise so he must be doing this for political, clubhouse-type reasons.

Buck is a very good manager, but even the best have weaknesses and blind spots and areas where they choose to do non-optimal things for alterior motives like keeping the team bought into his vision. It's silly to think we're not going to point those out and ask why.

Question. Does keeping the team bought in not count as a part of the optimal solution/decision?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, this is just a stupid survey to give sports writers some material and start some threads on fan pages. Roch suggests that Buck filled his out in front of Roch. Not sure how serious the managers take this. Second, did they present the votes or just the results? I wouldn't be surprised that winners at some of the positions (like Jones) got two or three votes and everyone else got one or two votes. There are several positions where the top players are slam dunks and there are positions, like "outfielder", where no manager, coach or fan might list the same three players much less list them in the same order. It's just meaningless drivel and shouldn't be interpreted as some serious evaluation of Jones or similar players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Question. Does keeping the team bought in not count as a part of the optimal solution/decision?

Sure. But the defense here is rarely that Brian Roberts is not performing and needs a defensive replacement and Buck won't do it to keep the team happy. It's more along the lines of Buck knows how Roberts is performing better than you and I, we're probably wrong, so you shouldn't question things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam Jones is the best player on the O's. I never understood the negativity towards him. Why can't you just be happy for the guy to be seen of as a good player by other managers?

Why don't you try and focus on the topic instead of throwing out meaningless rhetoric. Nobody hates Jones and the overwhelming majority are glad to have him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam Jones is the best player on the O's. I never understood the negativity towards him. Why can't you just be happy for the guy to be seen of as a good player by other managers?

Why can't we be very happy to have him while also pointing out that it's borderline ludicrous to suggest he's the best defensive center fielder in the game?

I wouldn't be surprised that winners at some of the positions (like Jones) got two or three votes and everyone else got one or two votes.

That was one of the primary problems with the Gold Gloves. There was no list of eliglible candidates, no presentation of even basic metrics, just a question "who's the best at each position?" So a manager would kind of take a minute to free-associate all of his memories of fielders and write down whoever came to mind. And the result in many cases had to be nine or ten guys getting votes and someone winning with like 19% of the total. Exposure and name recognition certainly drove many of the winning totals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And you're not going to win many battles if you keep going to the "Buck is a good manager so he must be right" card. Especially when the moves he makes don't make a lot of objective sense and the outsider's consensus is that he's smart enough to know that's not the best solution performance-wise so he must be doing this for political, clubhouse-type reasons.

Buck is a very good manager, but even the best have weaknesses and blind spots and areas where they choose to do non-optimal things for alterior motives like keeping the team bought into his vision. It's silly to think we're not going to point those out and ask why.

Its one thing to question and ask why and another to question Buck's evaluation and decision making skills. Buck knows who is hurting, we don't. Buck knows who needs a rest, we don't. Is Buck right all the time? No. He is human and he makes mistakes but to make an issue that he does not have good evaluation or decision making skills is not a smart argument.

Buck changed the culture of the O's. The O's won 93 games last year because of decisions of players and situations that Buck made. The O's are in the playoff race now because of Buck after 14 years of losing. Questioning Buck ability to manage and develop an organization is a losing battle if anyone just stops and thinks for half a second about what he has done of the O's instead of focusing on a single event.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On all these defensive surveys, I think offense plays a part. Who comes to mind when you think of outfielders? Guys like Adam Jones, not all-glove guys unless they've really made a name for themselves with the leather. So, I think Jones is a rather well-known name, and I think he is a good CF and defensive player, and these factors help him score high in these votes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its one thing to question and ask why and another to question Buck's evaluation and decision making skills. Buck knows who is hurting, we don't. Buck knows who needs a rest, we don't. Is Buck right all the time? No. He is human and he makes mistakes but to make an issue that he does not have good evaluation or decision making skills is not a smart argument.

Buck changed the culture of the O's. The O's won 93 games last year because of decisions of players and situations that Buck made. The O's are in the playoff race now because of Buck after 14 years of losing. Questioning Buck ability to manage and develop an organization is a losing battle if anyone just stops and thinks for half a second about what he has done of the O's instead of focusing on a single event.

Yes, Buck is smart and good and changed the culture so we need to just accept stuff and keep our mouths shut.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On all these defensive surveys, I think offense plays a part. Who comes to mind when you think of outfielders? Guys like Adam Jones, not all glove guys unless they've really made a name for themselves with the leather. So, I think Jones is a rather well-known name, and I think he is a good CF and defensive player, and these factors help him score high in these votes.

Yes, in an open plurality voting system where 15% or 20% could be the winning percentage the name recognition that comes with hitting well is probably what puts a lot of people over the top.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that AJ having the stones to play so shallow takes options away from hitters and managers before they even swing the bat, that adds to his value as a defender, and may well mess up his stats, but I dunno.

I love Adam Jones, he is a beast of a baller. And by signing his long term contract when he certainly would have had lots of other options, he showed that he believes in the Baltimore Orioles, the past be damned, so I'm gonna believe in him!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


  • Posts

    • Fangraphs also does farm system rankings, which are now up to date pre-draft, based on the FV grades and a dollar value assigned to the FV tiers. It’s also a handy table to compare what systems are strong in the middle of the pack vs top heavy.  https://www.fangraphs.com/prospects/farm-system-rankings The Orioles are still #1, but that is carried in large part by the huge value assigned to Holliday as a 70 FV hitter. However, if they graduated Holliday, they’d still be about tied with Boston as #4.  I haven’t done the math, but just looking at that table - if you took out every team’s top 4 prospects, the Orioles would fall behind some systems but still be near the top. They don’t have a large number of 50/45+/45 FV guys, which I think prompts this sentiment that the system is weaker, but it’s still strong in 40+/40/35+. And if you look at the actual values assigned for the FV tiers, IMO the 50/45+/45 tiers (ie, back end and borderline top 100 prospects) tend to be overvalued in public perception relative to what the numbers bear out. The really elite 70/65/60/55 prospects have a ton of value, and then beyond that having a bulk of prospects matters more. It’s true that the Orioles’ best prospects are already at the MLB or AAA level, with only Basallo in AA, so they’re going to have a lot of graduations in the near future. But the best prospects tend to be those that have already dominated the low minors, so I don’t think the Orioles are super unusual this way. Basically, the farm is not as dominant as it once was, but they have a long way to go before they’re even just middle of the pack. 
    • What are your guys thoughts on what we drafted?  Apologies if I missed some of your thoughts, haven't had the time to read the whole thread.
    • I wasn’t bothered by the idea or it going over the game content, they were showing split screen. I just thought it was kind of lame. Ortiz was just freestyling and it didn’t work. “Hey what are you gonna do next? Are you enjoying this?”  Should have had a few targets and one or two interesting things to show.  Also, why do they insist on doing interviews in the field and not when guys are hanging in the dugout? Will get way better content and not impact their performance.
    • Well maybe somewhat in the 2nd round or maybe great stuff w/ good command, but not so much in the 10th round or later when Elias likes to draft pitchers.
    • Basallo is the one of the big 3 we should least likely trade. If everyone has had a big time OPS in Norfolk, then it probably means something is up. 
    • Yes, he can do all of that and possibly at an all-star level. But that does not answer my question.
    • You got to get a surplus going so you can trade two of them for one season of a pitcher.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...