Why no talk of firing Presley?

[InsideCoroner]

Nobody can say this club has disappointed offensively, especially at their payroll levels. Bad teams might still beat the Orioles more often than we'd like, but more importantly, good teams fear this line-up. I am sure a number of TOR arms have laid awake in their hotel rooms late at night, wondered exactly how they got clobbered so badly by the O's. This team has the ability to embarrass anybody on the mound.

Presley is a good hitting coach whom many of us were praising earlier in the year. Unfortunately, it's not so easy to teach things like "hitting in the clutch with a runner on 3rd and less than two out". You just handle it, or you can't. And I am quite sure that a lot of the players in the majors, especially those with a few years under their belts, will often indulge their hitting coach but not take him seriously, especially when most of these coaches were never great MLB hitters themselves. They're making millions, and are expected to take advice from a guy who hit .270 in Visalia in 1974? Please.

Add to that a team coming off a storybook year (who maybe didn't get the handsome prince in the end, but still got his respectable, good-looking cousin) where everything went our way, and it's easy to begrudge a team still sitting in the pennant race in August, less than 6 games out of first. Let's take stock and appreciate the positives too, shall we?

[LookinUp]

All I know is what Duquette wants for an offense and how Presley instructs are the exact opposite.

Somebody's going to win out on their philosophy, and it usually isn't the hitting coach and of all the coaches, the hitting coach is usuallly the first to go when you want to change things up.

Like I said, I don't see it happening in season, but next offseason, if RISP and OBP with P/PA are still an issue not only will Duquette have to change out some players, but he will have to change the instruction as well.

Your inability to think through the process of developing complex functional systems (like teams, components of teams and components of individual success) would result in a $200m payroll failure. The only way the O's could ever succeed with your line of thinking is if we always went out and signed fully baked players, who would be more expensive, and who are somehow immune from declines in performance after they're free agents.

It is not nearly as simple as you think to build a team. There's no such thing as a team without warts. You can't go firing people or replacing every weak link with expensive veterans every time short range performance isn't up to par.

If it were up to you, Machado would have 5 hitting coaches in 5 years. Gausman would never have a chance to develop into what he needs to. Every time progression isn't linear, you'd find a scape goat and press the reset button; all on the assumption that you have the ability to draw informed opinions about the relative abilities of professional instructors. You don't.

[DrungoHazewood]

When you have instruction like this, there's no wonder why your bats are going cold with RISP nor getting on base:

http://www.masnsports.com/steve_melewski/2013/07/os-jim-presley-on-the-hitters-approach-and-working-counts.html

That was Presley after the Orioles' win on July 11th.

The Orioles in July hit .240/.293/.389/.681 as a team.

Their OBP was the second worst in baseball that month. This month they've rebounded to a .777 OPS, but their OBP continues to be dismal at .315, good enough for only 20th in MLB.

To have a hitting coach recommend not changing your approach when your approach has failed for a month is not somebody you want advising your hitters.

OBP and RISP have plagued this club since Presley's arrival with Showalter. The bats have power, but if there is no power, this club can't get on base to manufacture runs, and when some power does show up - it's in the form of a solo HR. Solo HRs are great, but not so great when you have 3-4 runs to make up and not a lot of time to do it in.

The Orioles have won an overwhelming majority of their games when they score 4 runs or more. And the opposite is true as they've lost an overwhelming number of games when they score less than 4 runs with an example of today's start.

Our pitching staff is not good enough to win games with only 1-3 runs of support, and that falls on Jim Presley to take advantage of that power by make sure the hitters are putting ducks on the pond and staying selective enough to get the mistake pitch to cash the runners in.

I'm not sure if this trend of poor OBP and not hitting with RISP will continue, but if it does and the Orioles miss the playoffs as a result, one of the first things that needs to happen is the hitting coach needs to be replaced. Presley isn't Crowley - with a long standing organizational tie, and plenty of teams have fired hitting coaches with positive results, the most recent example being the Kansas City Royals.

I'd love to see him replaced right now to try to turn this offense around, but I don't see that happening.

What we do know is that the Orioles approach at the plate is holding them back, and they have far too many bats that can do damage to not get enough men on base. And because of that poor OBP, they have to cash in the runs when they have the opportunity. A single or double can work just as well as the HR.

It's Jim Presley's job to coach the hitters for success and so far he's not doing it and the Orioles have too much at stake to let that happen.

We've had this discussion before. It's pretty simple, really. A team that wasn't expected to do much offensively this year instead is among the MLB leaders in runs, homers, doubles, etc. They're in contention for a playoff spot in August. The idea of firing their hitting coach is so far out of line with reality that you can't really even take the suggestion seriously. It almost has to be suggestion of someone with an agenda, or a parody or maybe the talk of someone who doesn't really follow baseball all that closely.

[DrungoHazewood]

Your inability to think through the process of developing complex functional systems (like teams, components of teams and components of individual success) would result in a $200m payroll failure.

That's actually a pretty good summation of the problem here. It's really a case of looking for extremely simplistic solutions to complicated problems. Whether blaming slumps on the hitting coach and expecting a mid-season firing and hiring of whomever happens to be available to fix, or the idea that doubling the payroll is realistic, workable, or wise... similar misconceptions.

[LookinUp]

It's really a case of looking for extremely simplistic solutions to complicated problems.

An even better summation.

[weams]

It's pretty simple, really. A team that wasn't expected to do much offensively this year instead is among the MLB leaders in runs, homers, doubles, etc. They're in contention for a playoff spot in August. The idea of firing their hitting coach is so far out of line with reality that you can't really even take the suggestion seriously. It almost has to be suggestion of someone with an agenda, or a parody or maybe the talk of someone who doesn't really follow baseball all that closely.

Of course this is the case. I don't mind it but it can't be a serious thought.

[ledzepp8]

He is not a bad poster. It is his opinions. We all have those. Now his opinions can

mAke you crazy sometimes. Doesn't mean he is a bad poster though.

The only reason some people don't take issue with Trea is because he's a nice person. His problem is that he has a one track mind, goes on a tangent about some topic du jour, and trolls about it incessantly. And it's usually about something that only a vast minority agree with him about (Tex, AM, Millar, Presley, etc).

[weams]

All I know is what Duquette wants for an offense and how Presley instructs are the exact opposite.

Somebody's going to win out on their philosophy, and it usually isn't the hitting coach and of all the coaches, the hitting coach is usuallly the first to go when you want to change things up.

Like I said, I don't see it happening in season, but next offseason, if RISP and OBP with P/PA are still an issue not only will Duquette have to change out some players, but he will have to change the instruction as well.

All I know is to you, the last GM was the devil, holding back Peter Angelos from unleashing his fortune upon the MLB. Creating winning Orioles baseball. Now this GM, who has slightly increased the payroll has one playoff appearance and and is in the hunt for another. Sound bites, platitudes, and beat reporter articles do not a window into the Mind of Minolta make.

[weams]

The only reason some people don't take issue with Trea is because he's a nice person. His problem is that he has a one track mind, goes on a tangent about some topic du jour, and trolls about it incessantly. And it's usually about something that only a vast minority agree with him about (Tex, AM, Millar, Presley, etc).

Yeah. He seemed fine when I met him. And when I have had big issues with him or his minion, he always worked with me on it.

[ledzepp8]

All I know is what Duquette wants for an offense and how Presley instructs are the exact opposite.

Somebody's going to win out on their philosophy, and it usually isn't the hitting coach and of all the coaches, the hitting coach is usuallly the first to go when you want to change things up.

Like I said, I don't see it happening in season, but next offseason, if RISP and OBP with P/PA are still an issue not only will Duquette have to change out some players, but he will have to change the instruction as well.

You're being ridiculous. The quote from Presley that you provided has nothing to do with the rest of what you argued.

"We are too good hitting of a ballclub to change what we do."

"We just have to be a little more selective when we get guys in scoring position. Like J.J. Hardy two nights ago, he was 1-2 (on the count) he gets a big base hit and gets us back in the game. That's a big at-bat."

"We had a meeting a few days ago and I reminded them that up to a week ago, 'Hey, we were probably the best hitting club with runners in scoring position in baseball. That's out of 30 clubs.' We've run into some good arms here. It's not going to be just this week. That is baseball."

He's saying to be selective. He's encouraging them to focus on what they've done all year, not just for the month of July. To focus on a small part of the season is your bag. Could the offense be improved? Of course. But the team has scored the 3rd or 4th most runs in the league. There isn't a hitting coach alive that would tell them to start doing things different because they've encountered a slump.

[weams]

You're being ridiculous. The quote from Presley that you provided has nothing to do with the rest of what you argued.

There isn't a hitting coach alive that would tell them to start doing things different because they've encountered a slump.

In fact a good hitting coach would probably help the slumping Orioles by helping them get back to what they were doing when they were not slumping. Even if it meant being aggressive. And not walking as much. I know. That is blasphemy.

[Can_of_corn]

In fact a good hitting coach would probably help the slumping Orioles by helping them get back to what they were doing when they were not slumping. Even if it meant being aggressive. And not walking as much. I know. That is blasphemy.

Has there been a period of time in your memory when folks unironically said "He (meaning Oriole player) is walking too much?" Even Cal in '88 only had 102 walks.

[JTrea81]

You're being ridiculous. The quote from Presley that you provided has nothing to do with the rest of what you argued.

"We are too good hitting of a ballclub to change what we do."

"We just have to be a little more selective when we get guys in scoring position. Like J.J. Hardy two nights ago, he was 1-2 (on the count) he gets a big base hit and gets us back in the game. That's a big at-bat."

"We had a meeting a few days ago and I reminded them that up to a week ago, 'Hey, we were probably the best hitting club with runners in scoring position in baseball. That's out of 30 clubs.' We've run into some good arms here. It's not going to be just this week. That is baseball."

He's saying to be selective. He's encouraging them to focus on what they've done all year, not just for the month of July. To focus on a small part of the season is your bag. Could the offense be improved? Of course. But the team has scored the 3rd or 4th most runs in the league. There isn't a hitting coach alive that would tell them to start doing things different because they've encountered a slump.

Perhaps the league has adjusted and they refuse to adjust back?

That would be a problem. And the focus is on a small part of the season because this is the stretch run to the playoffs, where almost everything has to be clicking or else you will miss out. It's how the team will play over the next two months that will determine if they go to the playoffs or not. What they did before the break doesn't matter in terms of trying to end a 30 year World Series drought.

[weams]

Perhaps the league has adjusted and they refuse to adjust back?

That would be a problem. And the focus is on a small part of the season because this is the stretch run to the playoffs, where almost everything has to be clicking or else you will miss out. It's how the team will play over the next two months that will determine if they go to the playoffs or not. What they did before the break doesn't matter in terms of trying to end a 30 year World Series drought.

We dont get to talk about a World Series drought in my world. We got back to the playoffs for the first time in a decade and a half. You get to the playoffs. And then you takes your chances. Besides. Billy Beane says his (our) stuff doesn't work in the playoffs.

[weams]

Also, the math of World Series championships says you win one every thirty. I hope we do.