Revised Poll - Whom Do You Prefer As Starting Second Baseman Down The Stretch (Not DH)

[mark_beckens]

Has always been a Roberts fan. To expect him to come back from almost 2 years of not playing and produce like he did before is ridiculous. It is and was going to take him time and at bats to get his timing back. And even when he got to that point, he may never be as good as he was 3+ years ago. Over the last couple weeks he has been hitting really well. Hopefully he's where he needs to be and we see something closer to the old BRob. I'd like to add that the last couple days, I've been really impressed with Ryan's at bats. He's been patient and has been taking the ball the other way. Something he wasn't doing in April-June.

[mark_beckens]

Yes, but "fewest errors" does not equate to "best defensive team".

It's a good start.

[El Gordo]

Yes, but "fewest errors" does not equate to "best defensive team".

No, but neither does the best UZR, or whatever other defensive metric you want to use. They are all flawed and the final judgment is going to be subjective.

[Nigel Tufnel]

It's a good start.

Ken Singleton fielded 1.000 in 1981. Was he the best defensive outfielder that year?

[Redskins Rick]

Ken Singleton fielded 1.000 in 1981. Was he the best defensive outfielder that year?

Since these three were the GG winners, you would have to think, they were all, just a notch better than Singleton: Dwight Evans, Rickey Henderson, & Dwayne Murphy.

Of course, GG is in the "eyes" of the writers.

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

OPS now at .720 and still rising. Almost to the (not completely) arbitrary target I set here. Recently passed Markakis in OPS on this team, JJ Hardy is up next.

I still don't think a few posters on here understand what I meant when I said 'upside.' I meant that his 'upside' is far above and beyond what he HAD been doing (.604 OPS in 2011, .415 in 2012, etc).

People on this board seemed to think that either those horrific numbers were do to a gradual erosion of skills due to his age, or that his body was too broken to keep him on the field anymore.

To me, I had seen enough in spurts (especially early this year) to see that #1 is probably not the case, so #2 was really the only issue.

Yes, he put up terrible numbers since the self-induced brain injury, but that was because he was still feeling the long term effects of said injury! He had not lost his fundamental skill set, it was just beyond what his body was capable of doing for a very long time. But here we are, in 2013, however many years removed from the concussion, and it looks like his body is holding together for the moment at least.

Here's the bottom line:

Given health, Roberts has proven enough to me that he can still produce at a major league level, and that's why I believe he deserves the 2B spot for the moment. Flaherty is younger and all and has shown some signs of being able to produce, but he doesn't have the track record. So for now, give me the guy with the track record.

Would I have signed a 2Bman suffering from concussion effects to a $10M contract this year? Of course not, but that is only relevant in an alternate reality where B-Rob is not on the Orioles roster. In the only reality that matters, he IS on the roster, so it makes sense to evaluate and see what he has left to offer, if anything.

It appears, that he hasn't given us everything.......................not yet.

Would rep you if I could.. Some solid posts up in here.

You've stated pretty much exactly what I think about the situation.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's a good start.

Eh... well... in the same way that batting average is a good start to figuring out who's the best hitter. Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you come to the conclusion that Freddy Sanchez is better than Albert Pujols.

[DrungoHazewood]

Ken Singleton fielded 1.000 in 1981. Was he the best defensive outfielder that year?

Since these three were the GG winners, you would have to think, they were all, just a notch better than Singleton: Dwight Evans, Rickey Henderson, & Dwayne Murphy.

Of course, GG is in the "eyes" of the writers.

If you don't remember, in 1981 Ken Singleton was just a tad bit faster than Matt Wieters is today. He was so good that the next year Earl had him DH 148 times. By modern metrics, figured retroactively, he was somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or 15 runs below average in 72 games in the outfield - in other words, horrible.

The point is fielding percentage only tells you a small part of the story. Range is almost always more important than sure-handedness.

[DrungoHazewood]

No, but neither does the best UZR, or whatever other defensive metric you want to use. They are all flawed and the final judgment is going to be subjective.

Metrics give you a structure and a baseline to start from that encompasses sure-handedness, range, throwing, and usually influence (such as limiting baserunners attempting to advance). Fielding percentage only gives you a tiny fraction of that. There's no reason at all to cite fielding percentage except as a small component feeding into your overall discussion and conclusions. Using fielding percentage as a proxy for fielding ability or fielding performance is just wrong.

[Redskins Rick]

If you don't remember, in 1981 Ken Singleton was just a tad bit faster than Matt Wieters is today. He was so good that the next year Earl had him DH 148 times. By modern metrics, figured retroactively, he was somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or 15 runs below average in 72 games in the outfield - in other words, horrible.

The point is fielding percentage only tells you a small part of the story. Range is almost always more important than sure-handedness.

I remember him, I thought he had bad knees and couldn't do the daily grind of the 162 game season?

Back in 1981, I was working two jobs and raising a family, did most of my following through the radio. Didn't even get to memorial stadium that year.

We didnt have MASN game casts, replays or even ESPN video highlights.

I dont remember the 81 club having that much speed, but I could be wrong.

[El Gordo]

Metrics give you a structure and a baseline to start from that encompasses sure-handedness, range, throwing, and usually influence (such as limiting baserunners attempting to advance). Fielding percentage only gives you a tiny fraction of that. There's no reason at all to cite fielding percentage except as a small component feeding into your overall discussion and conclusions. Using fielding percentage as a proxy for fielding ability or fielding performance is just wrong.

When you are talking about the difference between the three best fielders at a position or the three best fielding teams, metrics aren't going to help make much of a distinction in most cases. They are good for separating the really good from the average, and the really bad. But that's about it IMO.

[Old#5fan]

I remember him, I thought he had bad knees and couldn't do the daily grind of the 162 game season?

Back in 1981, I was working two jobs and raising a family, did most of my following through the radio. Didn't even get to memorial stadium that year.

We didnt have MASN game casts, replays or even ESPN video highlights.

I dont remember the 81 club having that much speed, but I could be wrong.

You are remembering pretty well as I recall Singy being very slow footed but if he got to a ball he caught it. Probably due to not being fast to begin with plus the bad knees. Hence he went to primarily a DH towards the later part of his career. He was a tough out though at the plate.