Should Tillman be considered an ace?

[Flash- bd]

sup, Pickles.

[Frobby]

Some people say "ace" is a more exclusive category than "no. 1 starter," others say the exact opposite, still others say the terms are synonymous. It's all word games.

For me, there are 10-12 "number one starters" in the league each year, but an "ace" is someone you expect to be in that "number one" category on a consistent basis.

[Pickles]

sup, Pickles.

A year and a half of more data certainly has changed my perceptions of Tillman.

It doesn't make what you said a year and a half ago any less wrong though.

[Dipper9]

Flacco is an above average QB, he's not elite.

Flacco is a SuperBowl winning MVP QB. I don't care if people call him elite or not. You can never take that away from him.

Its like if people say, is BobMC good looking? The response might be, "Hell No, but he did sleep with Anette Funicello once!"

[BohKnowsBmore]

Some people say "ace" is a more exclusive category than "no. 1 starter," others say the exact opposite, still others say the terms are synonymous. It's all word games.

For me, there are 10-12 "number one starters" in the league each year, but an "ace" is someone you expect to be in that "number one" category on a consistent basis.

I know it's semantics, but why would there not be 30 "number 1 starters?" I can see reasoning that #15-30 is too fluid for the "ace" label. The term number 1 starter makes me think of who would be the number ones across the league, on each staff, were talent evenly distributed.

[calmunderfire]

I do not think Tillman is an ace. It's really a subjective term, but I can't call him an ace after watching guys like Hernandez and Kershaw pitch. When others are so tremendously better than you than that means something to me.

[calmunderfire]

My comment was, if Tillman threw 95+ with his other pitches, he could be a #1. Without it he probably won't ever be considered a true #1. He can still be an ace.

Think the definition of #1 is two plus pitches, average+ third pitch, plus plus control and or movement. plus pitching makeup/thought process

Only a handful of starters in the league can average 94.5-95 on their fastball, but I agree if Tillman could sit at 94-95 with the ability to hit 98, 99 he could be an ace. His big issue is he surrenders far too many home runs to be an elite pitcher. Sitting at 91 throughout most of the game makes it much easier to square up a 4 seam fastball with not much movement.

[Frobby]

I'd give the following pitchers consideration for the title "ace":

Darvish

Greinke

Hernandez

Kershaw

Price

Sale

Scherzer

Verlander

Wainwright

There are some other guys who have been great in 2013, but they'd have to be very good again next year for me to consider them an ace. There are some guys who haven't been as good as usual in 2013 (e.g., Sabathia), and some others who are very close to this category but I decided to leave them off (e.g., Lee, Hamels, Sanchez).

[Bahama O's Fan]

Flacco is a SuperBowl winning MVP QB. I don't care if people call him elite or not. You can never take that away from him.

Its like if people say, is BobMC good looking? The response might be, "Hell No, but he did sleep with Anette Funicello once!"

Yes, so is Trent Dilfer and Mark Sanchez took his team to the AFC Championship game two years in a row. These are team accomplishments; we are not talking about the player when we list these kind of things.

[PeteU]

Yes' date=' so is Trent Dilfer and Mark Sanchez took his team to the AFC Championship game two years in a row. These are team accomplishments; we are not talking about the player when we list these kind of things.[/quote']

I apologize for the off-topic detour, but I'll just add that Dilfer wasn't the Super Bowl MVP. He basically held the ball for the defense. Flacco, on the other hand, was the Super Bowl MVP. His postseason performance last year arguably stands only behind Joe Montana. Plus I believe he's what--5, 6 years younger than Manning and Brady? If he's not considered elite yet, he stands a good chance of earning that title in the next couple of years if he keeps up his performance.

Okay, sorry about that off-topic diversion.

[Redskins Rick]

Only a handful of starters in the league can average 94.5-95 on their fastball, but I agree if Tillman could sit at 94-95 with the ability to hit 98, 99 he could be an ace. His big issue is he surrenders far too many home runs to be an elite pitcher. Sitting at 91 throughout most of the game makes it much easier to square up a 4 seam fastball with not much movement.

Thats a very silly notion.

The speed of your pitch does not make you a TOR.

There have been junkball pitchers that had great control and command of their pitches and were TOR.

Not every pitcher in the MLB HOF could hit 98 MPH.

[jamalshw]

To me, an "ace" or "number one starter" as generic terms relate to all teams and, thus, does not necessarily mean the top pitcher from each team so there is not necessarily 30. I would say, to me, there are likely 15 or so. To me it is a person that would be considered the #1 guy on most teams.

To me, Tillman is not quite that guy...yet. He is a very good #2. He is OUR ACE and OUR #1, but not proven enough to be a true #1. If he puts up the same type (or better) season next year, we may have a conversation.

[waroriole]

Thats a very silly notion.

The speed of your pitch does not make you a TOR.

There have been junkball pitchers that had great control and command of their pitches and were TOR.

Not every pitcher in the MLB HOF could hit 98 MPH.

I don't think he's saying it's the only factor. If Tillman were able to hit 97-98, and sit 95, he'd be more successful. There's no denying that. Basically, Tillman doesn't have the command and/or mastery of other pitches besides a CB to have Ace stuff.

The reason a guy like Maddux was an Ace was because of pinpoint command, which Chris doesn't have. So, Chris needs something else to have Ace stuff, and they are only saying that more velocity would be one of those things.

[Redskins Rick]

I don't think he's saying it's the only factor. If Tillman were able to hit 97-98, and sit 95, he'd be more successful. There's no denying that. Basically, Tillman doesn't have the command and/or mastery of other pitches besides a CB to have Ace stuff.

The reason a guy like Maddux was an Ace was because of pinpoint command, which Chris doesn't have. So, Chris needs something else to have Ace stuff, and they are only saying that more velocity would be one of those things.

Okay, I buy that.

You can teach heat, you either got it or you don't.

If you can have a 10 MPH different in fast and change, with the exact same motion, which you can teach, of course, with control, that is teachable to an extent.

[Redskins Rick]

Most people consider Verlander an ace, and check out these stats.

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[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: left]18[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: left]Justin Verlander[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: left]DET[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]30[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]30[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]192.2[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]190[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]88[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]78[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]68[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]182[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]12[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]11[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]3.3[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]1.34[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]3.64[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: oddrow player-10-30285]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]19[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]Chris Tillman[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]BAL[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]29[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]29[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]179.1[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]158[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]74[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]73[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]62[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]153[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]16[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]5[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]3.7[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]1.23[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, bgcolor: #DDDDDD !important, align: right]3.66[/TD]

[/TR]

</tbody>[/TABLE]