Should Tillman be considered an ace?

[waroriole]

Most people consider Verlander an ace, and check out these stats.

[TABLE=class: tablehead, width: 756]

<tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 11px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">[TR=class: evenrow player-10-6341, bgcolor: transparent]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: left]18[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: left]Justin Verlander[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: left]DET[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]30[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]30[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]192.2[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]190[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]88[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]78[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]68[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]182[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]12[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]11[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]3.3[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]1.34[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: right]3.64[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: oddrow player-10-30285]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]19[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]Chris Tillman[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]BAL[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]29[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]29[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]179.1[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]158[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]74[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]73[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]62[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]153[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]16[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]5[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]3.7[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: right]1.23[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, bgcolor: #DDDDDD !important, align: right]3.66[/TD]

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You're comparing a career best year for Tillman to a career worst year for Verlander.

[Frobby]

I don't think he's saying it's the only factor. If Tillman were able to hit 97-98, and sit 95, he'd be more successful. There's no denying that. Basically, Tillman doesn't have the command and/or mastery of other pitches besides a CB to have Ace stuff.

The reason a guy like Maddux was an Ace was because of pinpoint command, which Chris doesn't have. So, Chris needs something else to have Ace stuff, and they are only saying that more velocity would be one of those things.

There is almost nobody who sits 95. Matt Harvey and Steven Strasburg. End of list. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=10&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=4,d

Of the guys I listed above on my "ace" list:

Darvish 93.1

Greinke 91.7

Hernandez 91.3

Kershaw 92.5

Price 93.5

Sale 92.5

Scherzer 93.3

Verlander 94.0

Wainwright 91.1

For me, Tillman's biggest issue is finding his command in the first 1-2 innings of the game. I'm not worried about his velocity.

[isestrex]

I'd give the following pitchers consideration for the title "ace":

Darvish

Greinke

Hernandez

Kershaw

Price

Sale

Scherzer

Verlander

Wainwright

There are some other guys who have been great in 2013, but they'd have to be very good again next year for me to consider them an ace. There are some guys who haven't been as good as usual in 2013 (e.g., Sabathia), and some others who are very close to this category but I decided to leave them off (e.g., Lee, Hamels, Sanchez).

I think there are 3 definitions of the term "Ace"

1. The best pitcher on a team's staff. By this definition there are 30 Aces

2. One of the 30 best pitchers in baseball. By this definition, not every team will necessarily be represented.

3. An elite pitcher who would be the best regardless of staff. By this definition, the list you came up with is a good place to start.

I think Tillman fulfills the first 2 definitions. But not number 3.

[Redskins Rick]

You're comparing a career best year for Tillman to a career worst year for Verlander.

He is a career 3.43, so really not off the mark that much.

Tillman is pitching like a TOR, and hopefully, he can continue to improve, and this won't be a career year.

[waroriole]

There is almost nobody who sits 95. Matt Harvey and Steven Strasburg. End of list. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=10&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=4,d

Of the guys I listed above on my "ace" list:

Darvish 93.1

Greinke 91.7

Hernandez 91.3

Kershaw 92.5

Price 93.5

Sale 92.5

Scherzer 93.3

Verlander 94.0

Wainwright 91.1

For me, Tillman's biggest issue is finding his command in the first 1-2 innings of the game. I'm not worried about his velocity.

Does that velocity number include 2 seamers and Cutters?

[Tx Oriole]

Chris Tillman in my opinion is the ORIOLES ace.

But is it fair to call him that?

He is going after his 16th win, and each time he goes out I fee like we will win.

Every game he pitches is a close game and he ALWAYS gives us a chance to win.

I believe he is a good pitcher and may be the ace of the Oriole staff but to be an

ace is like a Nolan Ryan. Someone that can do it consistently. Maybe in time

Tillman can become that for the O's. IMO

[Hank Scorpio]

Call him whatever you want. When he's commanding three pitches, he's extremely tough to hit.

I'm very encouraged by his consistent ability to keep the O's in the game and (lately) to go 7 innings. When he's striking guys out on a 3-2 changeup after they fouled off three 93mph + fastballs, that's impressive (Nunez.)

I feel very secure whenever Tillman takes the mound. He still has innings where he battles his command, but he's been able to right the ship subsequent to that. It's very refreshing to see.

[Frobby]

Does that velocity number include 2 seamers and Cutters?

No. Just look at the link I posted and you'll see the 2 seamers and cutters are broken out separately.

[calmunderfire]

There is almost nobody who sits 95. Matt Harvey and Steven Strasburg. End of list. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=10&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=4,d

Of the guys I listed above on my "ace" list:

Darvish 93.1

Greinke 91.7

Hernandez 91.3

Kershaw 92.5

Price 93.5

Sale 92.5

Scherzer 93.3

Verlander 94.0

Wainwright 91.1

For me, Tillman's biggest issue is finding his command in the first 1-2 innings of the game. I'm not worried about his velocity.

Expand the list to 94+ and the list grows to a handful of guys. Price averaged well over 95 when he won the Cy Young. Verlander averaged 95 in his Cy Young season. Hernandez sat at 94 during his Cy Young season. Lincecum averaged over 94 his first Cy Young season and I remember him hitting 99. Other guys who haven't had such an extreme fastball usually have very strong fastballs during their Cy Young seasons. Guys like Kershaw, Greinke, Sabathia. The guys with a more typical fastball who win the award like Lee, Halladay, Carpenter and Zito typically have a lot of wins to take attention away from the peripherals and/or are usually veteran guys with great knowledge, command, control, pitch sequencing and quality offerings.

Seeing that Tillman has neither an extreme fastball nor great command, control nor tremendous MLB experience he's an unlikely candidate to morph into an ace.

[Redskins Rick]

Expand the list to 94+ and the list grows to a handful of guys. Price averaged well over 95 when he won the Cy Young. Verlander averaged 95 in his Cy Young season. Hernandez sat at 94 during his Cy Young season. Lincecum averaged over 94 his first Cy Young season and I remember him hitting 99. Other guys who haven't had such an extreme fastball usually have very strong fastballs during their Cy Young seasons. Guys like Kershaw, Greinke, Sabathia. The guys with a more typical fastball who win the award like Lee, Halladay, Carpenter and Zito typically have a lot of wins to take attention away from the peripherals and/or are usually veteran guys with great knowledge, command, control, pitch sequencing and quality offerings.

Seeing that Tillman has neither an extreme fastball nor great command, control nor tremendous MLB experience he's an unlikely candidate to morph into an ace.

It wasn't that long ago, that his name was mentioned for the CY Young list this year. Granted nobody expected him to win, but with his record, he had to be considered among the nominees.

[calmunderfire]

It wasn't that long ago, that his name was mentioned for the CY Young list this year. Granted nobody expected him to win, but with his record, he had to be considered among the nominees.

He won't get the slightest consideration with an ERA and FIP that high.

[Redskins Rick]

He won't get the slightest consideration with an ERA and FIP that high.

King Felix is 3.01

So 3.66 isn't extremely far off of that.

[TouchemAll]

No Doubt he's the O's Ace

Is he a MLB ACE? Every time the guy takes the mound he seems to make a better case

[calmunderfire]

King Felix is 3.01

So 3.66 isn't extremely far off of that.

That's more than half a run. That's huge in today's game. And you ignored FIP. Chris Tillman will receive zero Cy Young consideration. I guarantee it.

[BohKnowsBmore]

That's more than half a run. That's huge in today's game. And you ignored FIP. Chris Tillman will receive zero Cy Young consideration. I guarantee it.

Well, FWIW:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/features/cyyoung

ESPN's AL Cy Young Predictor as of today...

1. Scherzer, DET

2. Nathan, MIN

3. Rivera, NYY

4. Colon, OAK

5. Holland, KC

6. Sanchez, DET

7. Reed, CHW

8. Johnson, BAL

9. Tillman, BAL

10. Wilson, LAA

Not saying I agree with it, but I'm guessing he get's a handful of #5 votes and ends up at like 20 in the voting. Again, I'm not suggesting he deserves to win, but I think he will be named on a few ballots, so I disagree with the notion that he "will receive zero Cy Young consideration."