Is Buck Showalter a "Championship Quality Manager'?

[Orioles5]

I say no.

This game we saw today and last night is a direct product of the guys are completely exhausted and way over used including the entire season. Out core group has played more innings than almost any other team per position. That alone has them already tired. Bucks refusal to rotate his players to keep them fresh has resulted in the lack of hitting and also the increase in errors. Plus you take last night playing them the whole game not taking into consideration how will we play the next day?

These guys are plain wore out! "Bucky Boy" sticks with his "boys" no matter as we have seen with such defiance and resistance to common sense its really weird to me because that mentality just doesn't win you Championships. He seems to think I'll leave up to the players if they should play instead of taking the approach of their buddy and friend to more of a Earl Weaver authoritarian approach of what it takes to win the game and Championship. When you press and are not patient teams will exploit that in critical must win games that are on the line.

All of this has show me that having an aggressive approach is great if you want stats but it doesn't win the game if you are constantly placing your payers in a position to fail time and time again. In situational managing Buck has incredibly failed and I mean big time! The way I see it hes directly responsible for losing no less than 14-15 games as I count (subjective). So get this we can all agree we are an super aggressive hitting and a fairly aggressive pitching team but we are very very conservative on the base paths. How many times have we seen our guys camped out at first or second?

How many times have we seen them go from 1st to 3rd on a single? I was ecstatic back in April and May when they were running wild with Nate and CDavis was among the league leaders in Walks and they as a Team were 1st. They were patient, winning, the home runs were coming and all the averages were high? What happened was a Winning formula was abandoned. They just stopped running and decided that we are going to hit home runs and stop running and stop hitting to the opposite field. Going with the pitches and being patient hitters. That was a Winning formula. Buck has a wining percentage of just over 500.

Ok now in Bucks defense hes great at getting guys to believe in themselves and bring the team together organizationally and getting all the clubs to move in the right direction, establishing policies and new directives but his lack of situational managing is terrible to say the least. Hes definitely a "players manager" but not a Championship Manager. That's why we are so upset because we know this team is as good as any team in baseball. We already have the players minus a pitcher here or there. We just need the correct approach to theoretical and situational managing. Bring in a New Hitting Coach next year that can teach "Patient Aggression", Plate discipline and recognizing the strike zone and please keep Castro as hes done great

In closing I feel Buck would be a awesome GM or director of Player Personnel. This is just my opinion. Hes forgot more than what I will ever know about the game for sure and hes a great person for sure and the guys like him because hes loyal to them and never makes a derogatory statements to the press. But this will only last so long as the press and fan base will grow weary of his "political correctness" answers we keep hearing game in and game out. I will be very surprised if he lasts after 2014. History will repeat and some will be stubborn more than others. Hopefully not for our teams sake and ours too!

[El Gordo]

The better question would be is this a championship quality team? The answer is no. Because we don't have the starting pitching, or the depth to be able to rest the players enough. Nor do we have the place setters we need, to be driven in by all our power hitters.

[WNY Orioles Fan]

I say no. I don't think it's a coincidence that he gets fired after turns a tram around.

[Frobby]

The better question would be is this a championship quality team? The answer is no. Because we don't have the starting pitching, or the depth to be able to rest the players enough. Nor do we have the place setters we need, to be driven in by all our power hitters.

Ditto. Buck has his flaws, and I happen to believe he rode his top 7 players a little too hard. But this team just hasn't been quite good enough to be chamipionship caliber.

[JTrea81]

Showalter's stubbornness and loyalty to his "guys" is what gets him fired at every stop. The guy knows how to change the mindset of a team, but it's that loyalty that seems to be the drawback. This contract extension will be interesting to watch especially if the Orioles regress even further this next season which is a trait of Showalter teams. I doubt Angelos would fire him though. If Duquette tries to replace any of his staff this offseason as that is something that happens with a lot of teams that have these kinds of issues the Orioles are having, it will be interesting to see what happens...

[Ommaculate]

If he was a championship manager, we would have beaten the Yankees last year. I agree with the OP.

[waroriole]

Ditto. Buck has his flaws, and I happen to believe he rode histop 7 players a little too hard. But this team just hasn't been quite good enough to be chamipionship caliber.

He definitely did that. It will be interesting to see if that changes at all next year. In hindsight, it should have been done more this year, especially Markakis.

It's not like we don't have capable guys to step in (except C). Flaherty is more than competent enough to play SS and 3B a couple of times a month. He gave Jones some DH days early in the season, when Dickerson was playing well. But, for whatever reason, he just stopped resting guys as the season wore on.

[GoldGlove21]

I say no. I don't think it's a coincidence that he gets fired after turns a tram around.

So he has enough ability to turn franchises poor play around, but not enough to win a championship? Come on now! Everyone knew that the Orioles were basically returning the same team as 2012 and that team was "good enough" and got some great breaks. This team has not got the same breaks and we competed through the season. Now, if the O's go into the 2014 with basically the exact same minus a new set of bench guys, a #5 starter or another average arm in the pen than shame on DD and PA for not giving Buck the tools he needs to really succeed IMO.

[Tx Oriole]

I say no.

This game we saw today and last night is a direct product of the guys are completely exhausted and way over used including the entire season. Out core group has played more innings than almost any other team per position. That alone has them already tired. Bucks refusal to rotate his players to keep them fresh has resulted in the lack of hitting and also the increase in errors. Plus you take last night playing them the whole game not taking into consideration how will we play the next day?

These guys are plain wore out! "Bucky Boy" sticks with his "boys" no matter as we have seen with such defiance and resistance to common sense its really weird to me because that mentality just doesn't win you Championships. He seems to think I'll leave up to the players if they should play instead of taking the approach of their buddy and friend to more of a Earl Weaver authoritarian approach of what it takes to win the game and Championship. When you press and are not patient teams will exploit that in critical must win games that are on the line.

All of this has show me that having an aggressive approach is great if you want stats but it doesn't win the game if you are constantly placing your payers in a position to fail time and time again. In situational managing Buck has incredibly failed and I mean big time! The way I see it hes directly responsible for losing no less than 14-15 games as I count (subjective). So get this we can all agree we are an super aggressive hitting and a fairly aggressive pitching team but we are very very conservative on the base paths. How many times have we seen our guys camped out at first or second?

How many times have we seen them go from 1st to 3rd on a single? I was ecstatic back in April and May when they were running wild with Nate and CDavis was among the league leaders in Walks and they as a Team were 1st. They were patient, winning, the home runs were coming and all the averages were high? What happened was a Winning formula was abandoned. They just stopped running and decided that we are going to hit home runs and stop running and stop hitting to the opposite field. Going with the pitches and being patient hitters. That was a Winning formula. Buck has a wining percentage of just over 500.

Ok now in Bucks defense hes great at getting guys to believe in themselves and bring the team together organizationally and getting all the clubs to move in the right direction, establishing policies and new directives but his lack of situational managing is terrible to say the least. Hes definitely a "players manager" but not a Championship Manager. That's why we are so upset because we know this team is as good as any team in baseball. We already have the players minus a pitcher here or there. We just need the correct approach to theoretical and situational managing. Bring in a New Hitting Coach next year that can teach "Patient Aggression", Plate discipline and recognizing the strike zone and please keep Castro as hes done great

In closing I feel Buck would be a awesome GM or director of Player Personnel. This is just my opinion. Hes forgot more than what I will ever know about the game for sure and hes a great person for sure and the guys like him because hes loyal to them and never makes a derogatory statements to the press. But this will only last so long as the press and fan base will grow weary of his "political correctness" answers we keep hearing game in and game out. I will be very surprised if he lasts after 2014. History will repeat and some will be stubborn more than others. Hopefully not for our teams sake and ours too![/quote

This is im

Impossible to understand what you are saying. Were you asleep last season when the O's got into the playoffs? Yes it is frustrating to lose but I don't blame it all on

one person. Maybe not enough was done last offseason. Maybe Buck trying to win

games used his starters too much. Maybe it was just the circumstances that he

has to win as many games as they can and that is the reason he used his

starters so much. This just wasn't the O's year. I believe they will be a lot better

in 2014. IMO

[centralpaosfan]

Buck's positives certainly outweigh the negatives. There are two major flaws I see in his managing style.

First, he is WAY too loyal to players that are just not getting it done. There were several times this year when a player needed to be benched or have his roles altered and he refused to do it.

Secondly, I believe he puts too much power in the hands of his players. He often said he will talk with _____________ and see how they feel when asked about if they will play. What answer does he think he will get from a professional athlete who has a super competitive nature? He needs to take the decision out of their hands and be the manager. He needs to be ok with players being ****** at him from time to time.

[oriolesfanstan]

Well most realize we won't win a World Series with Buck so the real question becomes can this roster win a World Series with a different manager. At this point I'd tend to say no because the starting rotation simply isn't good enough. I do however think if you get a TOR and a new skip we become instant World Series contenders. Hope something is done soon because the window won't be open forever.

[Rojo13]

Showalter's stubbornness and loyalty to his "guys" is what gets him fired at every stop. The guy knows how to change the mindset of a team, but it's that loyalty that seems to be the drawback.

Look people. Perspective is needed. Reminder, only one team can win the World Series each year.

I'm as frustrated as anyone that barring a miracle we won't be in the post-season. As the team has turned into a sub-500 team since month #2, I've seen my frustration mount and found myself repeatedly questioning Buck.

But you don't go from a genius to "let's fire him" in the span of 365 days. Baseball is a game where it's easy to second guess the manager when you lose.

Buck is a good manager. I have questioned his playing the top guys every day in other threads but that's likely why the guys like him and may be why they overachieved last year and this year (based on what the 'experts' not people on here were predicting). If he doesn't play them every day, who knows. It very well could be worse.

Does he get any credit for his faith in Chris Davis -his telling him, you are our #1 guy - has resulted in a once in a generation type season?

It's not Buck's fault that Chris Davis went from hitting .315 before the allstar break to .247 after it, that Machado went from hitting .310 to .238, and Jones went from .296 to .287. The hitters couldn't all maintain their ridiculous career type first halves and the team has struggled in the second half. Without unreal hitting, this team wasn't likely contend. I mean how many of our starters would start for someone like the Washington Nationals? One?

Here are the Baltimore batting leaders since the all-star break.

NAME BA

Bud Norris† 0.667

Danny Valencia 0.367

J.J. Hardy 0.286

Adam Jones 0.276

Henry Urrutia 0.276

Steve Pearce 0.259

Taylor Teagarden 0.25

Steve Clevenger† 0.25

Chris Davis 0.247

Brian Roberts 0.246

Nick Markakis 0.243

Manny Machado 0.238

Nate McLouth 0.236

The fact of the matter is we have the 15th highest payroll in baseball - middle of the pack - and that's where we are finishing.

It's not Buck's fault.

We can't let the win-loss record impact our judgement. The manager can't do all that much in baseball. Many of you like Ommaculate act like the manager plays all 9 positions.

Last time, I checked Bruce Bochy won the World Series last year and this year is managing a basement dwellar. I wonder if the SF Giants boards are full of "Fire Bochy" threads.

[oriolesfanstan]

Look people. Perspective is needed. Reminder, only one team can win the World Series each year.

I'm as frustrated as anyone that barring a miracle we won't be in the post-season. As the team has turned into a sub-500 team since month #2, I've seen my frustration mount and found myself repeatedly questioning Buck.

But you don't go from a genius to "let's fire him" in the span of 365 days. Baseball is a game where it's easy to second guess the manager when you lose.

Buck is a good manager. I have questioned his playing the top guys every day in other threads but that's likely why the guys like him and may be why they overachieved last year and this year (based on what the 'experts' not people on here were predicting). If he doesn't play them every day, who knows. It very well could be worse.

Does he get any credit for his faith in Chris Davis -his telling him, you are our #1 guy - has resulted in a once in a generation type season?

It's not Buck's fault that Chris Davis went from hitting .315 before the allstar break to .247 after it, that Machado went from hitting .310 to .238, and Jones went from .296 to .287. The hitters couldn't all maintain their ridiculous career type first halves and the team has struggled in the second half. Without unreal hitting, this team wasn't likely contend. I mean how many of our starters would start for someone like the Washington Nationals? One?

Here are the Baltimore batting leaders since the all-star break.

NAME BA

Bud Norris† 0.667

Danny Valencia 0.367

J.J. Hardy 0.286

Adam Jones 0.276

Henry Urrutia 0.276

Steve Pearce 0.259

Taylor Teagarden 0.25

Steve Clevenger† 0.25

Chris Davis 0.247

Brian Roberts 0.246

Nick Markakis 0.243

Manny Machado 0.238

Nate McLouth 0.236

The fact of the matter is we have the 15th highest payroll in baseball - middle of the pack - and that's where we are finishing.

It's not Buck's fault.

We can't let the win-loss record impact our judgement. The manager can't do all that much in baseball. Many of you like Ommaculate act like the manager plays all 9 positions.

Last time, I checked Bruce Bochy won the World Series last year and this year is managing a basement dwellar. I wonder if the SF Giants boards are full of "Fire Bochy" threads.

Look man, I get what your saying but its a losers mentality. The goal o EVERY team is to win the World Series. As a former Yankee fan I can tell you they expect to win it EVERY year. Anything less and its a time to make a change of the people in charge.

[waroriole]

Look man, I get what your saying but its a losers mentality. The goal o EVERY team is to win the World Series. As a former Yankee fan I can tell you they expect to win it EVERY year. Anything less and its a time to make a change of the people in charge.

They are also the most obnoxious fans in sports (other than Alabama football). If you expect to win it every year, then you're going to be disappointed almost every year.

Your statement is absolutely absurd. So, 29 teams should clear house every season?

[oriolesfanstan]

They are also the most obnoxious fans in sports (other than Alabama football). If you expect to win it every year, then you're going to be disappointed almost every year.

Your statement is absolutely absurd. So, 29 teams should clear house every season?

No but when you have a window you need to have the best chance to win it. We MUST have the best team which means the best skipper for the job. The facts are that Buck has never been a manager to win you a WS or win you a big game. In fact when he leaves teams they win the World Series or get a lot better right after.

And no I wouldn't fire him this offseson, I'd give him at least part of next season. Just because we hadn't made the playoffs for 14 years and he was the manager of the team that made it doesn't make him unfireable. In fact, the Yankees hadn't made in a decade and he got FIRED the next year after leading them to the playoffs. We then won the World Series.