Bloomberg says Camden Yards was a stupid idea

[atomic]

Yes he does and he spent part of it in Afghanistan. You didn't need to go there to make your point.

Nah, the Yankees only drew 3.2M in 81 days, paying a lot more per ticket than it costs to go the MMA. Just imagine what the Yankees would draw if they were open 365 days, right?

Well it is good that it costs less to the Met. As the goal is to draw tourists into town not to get them to spend a ton of money at one event where only a few people benefit. Most of the fans going to the Yankees games are New Yorkers.. I bet that isnt' true about their art museums. I am sure people all over the world go to NYC just to see the Metropoitan Museum of Art, the Museum of Modern Art and the Statue of Liberty. And that is what makes the city such a big tourist draw not the Yankees.

I am going to Paris not see Paris St Germain play. I plan to see one of their games but I would never go there just to see them. Just like I just got back from Munich. Bayern Munchen has the best team in the world but I didn't even get to see a game as they weren't playing that week. People overrate sports ecomonic benefits because they love sports so much. If you are saying I want a team in my city no matter what the cost and benefit say that instead of making it into something it is not.

[atomic]

my $.02 here.

Those saying Camden Yards is a bad deal are missing the bigger picture.

1) Colts bolted after stadium deals in the past fell apart. Leaving Baltimore with no NFL team.

2) Memorial Stadium while it had it's history was costing more money to upkeep the stadium then what it was worth.

3) O's have a 30 year lease. 10 years are still left and will be resigned. Once those bonds are paid off, it's 100% profit for the MSA.

4) There was major redevelopment of Federal Hill. Without Camden Yards, no way Federal Hill has that kind of redevelopment.

5) The Hotel and Condo development. That means Hotel taxes which are collected by the City.

6) Under Armor. Do you think if there was no franchise in Baltimore (NFL or MLB) Under Armor would be HQed there? Absolutely not. They could have gone to College Park.

7) While this goes with reason #1, it's important to understand. Maryland collects taxes from players. Every player pays $15,072 plus another 5.75% for every dollar over $300,000. That means Flacco pays $1.72 million a year to Maryland. Without those players that money is gone. With Millionaires leaving Maryland in droves.. it's a solid tax base that will never leave.

8) If you add up all the fees and tax collected, Camden Yards paid for itself already. It's just how those taxes were collect that makes the difference. Since MSA collects the money to pay the bonds, bonds aren't fully paid off. But if all the taxes collect due to Camden Yards were tallied, Maryland and Baltimore are in the black.

Federal Hill doesn't have anything to do with the Orioles. Canton and Fells Point got gentrified as well and they dont' have the Orioles anywhere near them.

[big_sparxx]

This was the first season in the last 3 that my son and I didn't make the trip to our now beloved B'more. We have had the pleasure of saying within walking distance to Camden Yards on both occasions and enjoy the Babe Ruth Museum, and the Sports Museum too.

Coming in from Bermuda it's a direct flight in the summer months (Air Tran) and in the spring it's a connect through Philly (AA). Don't get me wrong... we come for the O's. Anything else is a bonus. There are no decent malls close (which keeps the wife and daughter at bay) and as we don't drive in the US (you guys are on the wrong side of the road), we hike or cab it.

We come for 5 games. Usually enough to see a full rotation and 2 teams in to visit. That's our plan. During days we walk down to the Inner Harbour (aside from the day game on Sunday Afternoons) and we poke around and try and get to enjoy as much of the CHARM CITY as we can.

I can't speak to the financial commitments, nor whether or not the two stadiums are worthwhile. I can tell you that since we have adopted B'more as our second home, my son is a HUGE Ravens fan. and I fear our next trip will have to try and squeeze in BOTH teams.

I have seen the O's play in different cities... Toronto, New York, Boston and Detroit ( the OLD Tiger stadium), and there's NOTHING like Camden Yards... nothing. There's NOTHING like it. It is the ULTIMATE baseball experience. We love Pickles (stayed in the hotel above it overlooking the port-a-potties) and we love the city. ARTSCAPE is awesome in the summer, and the Open Farmer's Market (we don't have anything like that here) is an AMAZING Sunday Brunch. Oh and a trip to Joe Squared is always on the itinerary.

The Aquarium is cool and the USS Constellation is cool too. But our focus is and always will be ... those O's. There's nothing better in the world. Baseball heaven.

[weams]

Federal Hill doesn't have anything to do with the Orioles. Canton and Fells Point got gentrified as well and they dont' have the Orioles anywhere near them.

Without Camden Yards you don't get M&T. With the Orioles gone and no Ravens, I doubt any of those gentrified areas would have much staying power.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah, absolutely. I want the Orioles and Ravens in Baltimore, which means I was in favor of paying for the stadiums if the alternative was no team. It just seems like a bad system, where we all subsidize the richest guy in town.

This is one of the huge benefits from being a monopoly with strict territorial rights. If there were either other leagues or less restrictive franchise movement rules then the threat of leaving would disappear. There would always be teams willing to play in a serviceable stadium in a decent sized market.

[BradyBunch]

Totally disagree on this. I have travelled to Columbus and Cinncinati multiple times on business and Columbus wins over Cinncinati for me in a landslide. Not even close.

This is funny.. I live in Columbus. They have two pro-sports teams (3 if you count the Buckeyes). You should check out how Nationwide Arena's sale is set up. Columbus city council now "owns" Nationwide Arena by using Casino money to pay it off. Huntington Park (Clippers) was paid for by public financing (owned by Franklin County).

Columbus Crew's former owner built the stadium out of his own pocket but had to lease the land and now the Crew needs a new home and can't find anywhere to build because the city nixed buying land for the team (new owner is willing to pay for the stadium again) because the City had to bailout it's other Pro Team the Columbus Bluejackets (Nationwide Arena).

The Development in Columbus, which isn't happening in Baltimore the way you expected, comes down to taxes and partnerships but still has it's vacancy problems.

Columbus has Lex Wexner (Limited Brands), Nationwide, Huntington Bank, Cardinal Health, Battelle, Owens Corning, Wendy's, Siemens, Big Lots, and then Ohio State. Columbus is a 21st century city. It's basically a Silicon Valley city in the Midwest. Cleveland and Cincy has yet to move to the 21st city which is why they are "hell holes".

Baltimore has what? Mid level companies and a service economy (low paying jobs). So Baltimore has to rely on Tourism and the O's and Ravens are part of that.

[weams]

This is one of the huge benefits from being a monopoly with strict territorial rights. If there were either other leagues or less restrictive franchise movement rules then the threat of leaving would disappear. There would always be teams willing to play in a serviceable stadium in a decent sized market.

Absolutely. We loved our CFL team.

[BradyBunch]

Federal Hill doesn't have anything to do with the Orioles. Canton and Fells Point got gentrified as well and they dont' have the Orioles anywhere near them.

You serious? Federal Hill, Fells Point and Canton would be the dumps they were before if it wasn't for Camden Yards. People started moving back to the city because of Camden Yards. Federal Hill and Fells Point are also places people (Tourist) go to drink after the games. Sometimes Pickles and Sliders doesn't cut it!

[atomic]

This is funny.. I live in Columbus. They have two pro-sports teams (3 if you count the Buckeyes). You should check out how Nationwide Arena's sale is set up. Columbus city council now "owns" Nationwide Arena by using Casino money to pay it off. Huntington Park (Clippers) was paid for by public financing (owned by Franklin County).

Columbus Crew's former owner built the stadium out of his own pocket but had to lease the land and now the Crew needs a new home and can't find anywhere to build because the city nixed buying land for the team (new owner is willing to pay for the stadium again) because the City had to bailout it's other Pro Team the Columbus Bluejackets (Nationwide Arena).

The Development in Columbus, which isn't happening in Baltimore the way you expected, comes down to taxes and partnerships but still has it's vacancy problems.

Columbus has Lex Wexner (Limited Brands), Nationwide, Huntington Bank, Cardinal Health, Battelle, Owens Corning, Wendy's, Siemens, Big Lots, and then Ohio State. Columbus is a 21st century city. It's basically a Silicon Valley city in the Midwest. Cleveland and Cincy has yet to move to the 21st city which is why they are "hell holes".

Baltimore has what? Mid level companies and a service economy (low paying jobs). So Baltimore has to rely on Tourism and the O's and Ravens are part of that.

Baltimore has a lot of big business as well. Plus we have Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. There is plenty of money here. That isn't the problem. I did work for Nationwide at the time and they have a huge complex in Columbus. We could discuss the issues of Baltimore compared to Columbus but I think that would get off ttopic.

[atomic]

You serious? Federal Hill, Fells Point and Canton would be the dumps they were before if it wasn't for Camden Yards. People started moving back to the city because of Camden Yards. Federal Hill and Fells Point are also places people (Tourist) go to drink after the games. Sometimes Pickles and Sliders doesn't cut it!

That is truely nonsense. Federal Hill was being built up before Camden Yards even existed and so was Fells Point. I lived in Fells Point during the time Camden Yards was being built. Canton has nothing to do with it either. People want to live near the water.

[BradyBunch]

Baltimore has a lot of big business as well. Plus we have Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. There is plenty of money here. That isn't the problem. I did work for Nationwide at the time and they have a huge complex in Columbus. We could discuss the issues of Baltimore compared to Columbus but I think that would get off ttopic.

Baltimore has one Fortune 500 company. Columbus has six. Baltimore doesn't have Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid, they are located in Woodlawn which is out of the city.

Of course.. I was just pointing out major differences.

[Tony-OH]

If you don't know what the BMA is than I feel sorry for you. Do you have a life outside of sports? And people definitely take vacations to see Art Museums and Zoos. The only reason I went to Madrid was to see the Prado Museum and Reina Sof?a museum and those places were packed. 8 million people go to the Louvre each year. I am sure a lot of people are going to NYC for the art museums ..probably a lot more than go to see the Yankees.

Edit: 6,115,881 go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC each year. The Yankees dont' get that much in attendance.

It is you Mr. Taglibue. BTW, I looked up BMA and no, I've never been to a stupid art museum and yes I have a life outside of sports. Considering all the people who watch sports or TV and attend, I'm going to say sports is a little more important than an Art museum. If you think for a second that building an art museum or a first class zoo in Baltimore is better for Baltimore than their baseball and football stadiums, by pointing out the two most famous art museums attendance, then I don't know what to say.

I enjoy going to concerts and shows (I'm a pretty big Les Miz fan), and I enjoy a good history museum (The DC ones are pretty great), but I'd rather go to the dentist then go to an art museum. If that makes me less cultured in your eyes then so be it!

[BradyBunch]

That is truely nonsense. Federal Hill was being built up before Camden Yards even existed and so was Fells Point. I lived in Fells Point during the time Camden Yards was being built. Canton has nothing to do with it either. People want to live near the water.

LOL..being built up or cleaning up.. major difference.

[Tony-OH]

Federal Hill doesn't have anything to do with the Orioles. Canton and Fells Point got gentrified as well and they dont' have the Orioles anywhere near them.

The more I read from you on this subject the more I realize how right Sports Guy was about you. If you don't think the added bar scene was not helped by the Ravens and Orioles being in town then you don't understand economics at all.

How many bars in the Maryland area make money off people watching Ravens games? How many people go out to dinner at a place that has TVs so they can watch the Orioles games during the summer? How many people buy Orioles and Ravens clothing and memorabilia from shops in around Baltimore? Maybe not all of these are in Baltimore, and I'm certainly not arguing that the ownership are getting the best end of the deal, but economic impact of having major sport teams is huge.

Inner city issues has nothing to do with sports teams as every city have the same issues. Sports are a major way for a lot of people to pass time, spend time with their friends and family and a way for cities to have something to feel pride in. New York and Paris can be the havens for culture. I'll take my Orioles, Ravens, a sports bar, Fells point, the inner harbor, a theater, a good concert hall (The Civic center needs to be replaced) and even throw in the the National aquarium and I'll be a happy man in Baltimore. I'll go to DC if I want to see a National-level museum Mr. Taglibue!

[Mondo Trasho]

The economics isn't about whether or not there were some benefits to the stadiums being built; it's about whether the benefits were worth the cost. Every single legitimate study into the matter have concluded that stadiums are not worth the cost. They just aren't.