Ugh. Are we going to have to blow it up?

[twinedenter]

What trade have we come out behind? The Hammel trade, Norris Trade,and Feldman trade seem like we came out ahead. The Jim Johnson trade was a salary dump and Jim Johnson was awful last season anyway. You can't force other teams to give you good players for vastly overpaid player with one year left on his contract.

You and I been down this road already my friend. We just don't agree. Let's just say DD's strong suit is not trading, IMO.

[Morgan423]

I almost feel like blowing it up would be worthless also. They blow it up to get young guys to create a new core. Then they will refuse to add to that core again and will not able to afford the new players when there time is due, so we trade them off. Rinse, Repeat. Then the viscous circle of hell is complete.

Absolutely, unfortunately correct. I'd be all for blowing it up, but we can't trust team leadership to handle the process correctly.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[Elbren]

Problem is people out here wanna blame PA. Although he may be constricting some moves, it isn't like Duquette has nothing to work with.

Example: He has a catcher, who the fans have turned on, who he could trade and improve this club. Problem is, we have seen DD's trades and we usually don't come out ahead.

People blame Angelos because he's the owner and the only true constant throughout the past 16+ years. There's a reason why, despite all of the GM's and managers we've burned through, the results w/ this team have (almost) always looked the same.

Your point about Wieters is moot because this team has shown over the past 16 years that we just don't trade ML guys at their peak value. We either hold on to them too long or just let them walk as FA's.

Bedard was the lone exception to this.

Tampa Bay and Oakland also struggle to draw 15,000 a game most nights. You know why? Because the fans can't get invested in their players. What good is rooting for a top tier player if you know he'll be gone in a few years?

And you can blame it on the stadiums all you want, but if the A's and Rays weren't such a player carousel, the Trop and Coliseum would be near full on a daily basis. And there'd also be better public support to have new stadiums built for those teams.

Listen, I'm as frustrated as anyone with the apparent tight fistedness of the front office. And perhaps it's all just banging our head against the wall at this point.

But even then, we shouldn't want to be Tampa Bay or Oakland. Nor do we need to be, which is what infuriates everyone.

I have to assume you've never been to the Tampa/St. Pete area. If you had, you would know that Florida is a transient state and most sports teams have problems there; Tampa/St. Pete in particular. That's basically Yankee country. They have a MiL affliate there and they also hold spring training there. You see Yankee bumperstickers, flags and jersey's everywhere; even billboards (seriously, wtf is up w/ that?). The Rays have been there ... what, almost 20 years now? If they don't have a fan base now, they're never going to have one. The only hope would be to move that franchise, but you can't because they are stuck in that absurd lease with Tropicana Field.

In fairness the Tigers have zero championships and they do things the other way. Rarely does the best team on paper emerge as the champion. Sports is about structuring your roster to get into the tournament that starts after the regular season, from there anything can happen. Tampa and Oakland have excelled at giving themselves a chance at a championship by getting into the post season tournament.

The problem with this is, you can't compare this team to Oakland and Tampa. They are supported by their MiL systems which are far better at churning out ML ready players. Whether you're talking about guys contributing at the ML level or players getting packaged together and being traded away to help the ML club, those teams do a much better job at producing MiL talent.

The O's need to learn how to trade guys at peak value, not to mention completely overhauling their MiL system, before you could even think to compare this team to the Oakland's and Tampa's of the league.

I get that, but I think people are looking at what those clubs do as a model, not necessarily following it to a T. Those clubs have had success and stayed relevant by a certain approach despite really tight budgets. I'd suggest that St. Louis should be used as a model as well on how the O's can stay relevant. As things stand I'm no sure what philosophy the O's are following and I fear that by 2016 we will be back where we started pre-2012.

That's because they're stuck in the middle, as usual. Trying to do both, not really accomplishing either.

[twinedenter]

That's because they're stuck in the middle, as usual. Trying to do both, not really accomplishing either.

I agree.

This formula will start another long streak of bad teams, we have seen this act before.

[Luper2207]

No chance Davis signs for 6/100 now. Unless he gets a new agent.

I think it takes at least 6/120, and probably more.

Davis is projected to make $10 million in arb this year. Maybe $16 million in 2015.....I think the security of a long term deal might persuade him to sign a contract closer to $100 vs $120....I think there is value in that range.......

[waroriole]

Davis is projected to make $10 million in arb this year. Maybe $16 million in 2015.....I think the security of a long term deal might persuade him to sign a contract closer to $100 vs $120....I think there is value in that range.......

If he changes agents, yes. If not, it shows his desire to cash in as much as possible.

[webbrick2010]

I don't think 6/120 is even in the ballpark

8/200 and Boras doesn't hang up immediately... only two players in baseball had an OPS > 1.00 last year

probably 10/300 will be what he gets. This is his age 28 season.

It will be sad to see him bashing homeruns elsewhere but I can't see the O's even getting close to what he will be offered.

[El Gordo]

If Davis has another .900 +OPS year, the sky's the limit.

[NewMarketSean]

Then you trade Davis this season.

[xKHx]

See it goes right back to how much money we can afford with most of you. I am sure DD is smart and knows his budget and works with in it.The problem I see is they have not and are not preparing well for it.

Every year we hear about the market and every year it gets higher. Its very high now because of the 27 mill that all the teams have decided to spend albeit not the O's. All teams knew about this and could have predicted salaries being higher and should not be surprised by the up tick in the prices of FA. Poor planning by not signing a head of schedule last year, or clearing some of the books for this year did not take place. Teams reload all of the time and win. I agree with the people who say the O's just try to plug and play instead of really looking at the future markets and predicting how they should play the market. They always seem slow and left behind when it comes to the offseason and they should not be. They know their budget (we don't and it drives us nuts) so they should know what they have to do year in and year out to get the players they need or need to get rid of to have a very good offseason.

[Tx Oriole]

Clowns to the left of me, Joker's to the right

Stuck in the middle with Angelos. I don't agree that the team should be blown up.

I can't imagine trading Davis, Matt and Hardy. For a shot in 2016-2017. I would

rather see them keep on plugging away. With the hope that DD will make some

moves yet. IMO

[waroriole]

Stuck in the middle with Angelos. I don't agree that the team should be blown up.

I can't imagine trading Davis, Matt and Hardy. For a shot in 2016-2017. I would

rather see them keep on plugging away. With the hope that DD will make some

moves yet. IMO

They're not going to be here in 2016 unless you think the O's are going to start raising their payroll considerably. So, the smart thing to do is get the most value while you can now. Or, start increasing payroll and legitimately try to win.

[Luper2207]

I don't think 6/120 is even in the ballpark

8/200 and Boras doesn't hang up immediately... only two players in baseball had an OPS > 1.00 last year

probably 10/300 will be what he gets. This is his age 28 season.

This is not reality.....he will be paid around $10 million this season and $16 in 2015.....if we gave him a 10-300 deal that would value his 8 free agent years at $34.25 million per year....an 8-200 deal values his free agent years at around $29 million. None of that makes any sense

[waroriole]

This is not reality.....he will be paid around $10 million this season and $16 in 2015.....if we gave him a 10-300 deal that would value his 8 free agent years at $34.25 million per year....an 8-200 deal values his free agent years at around $29 million. None of that makes any sense

It's best to not even respond to him. He is a hyperbole machine.

[crawjo]

This discussion could use its very own.

Ok so DD has confines to work in. Right around 100 million. You can be mad at Angelos or whoever you want but I would like to discuss why they are not taking advantage of the money that is afforded to them.

1. DD had the chance to trade JJ last year for much more then he got now. We all knew what his arb year was this year so why was this not planned for better? Instead of getting very good talent he strapped himself within a month deadline and pulled a bad catcher and Weeks.

Point is if you have a budget to work in you have to make tough decisions. While we are on this do we really need to reallocate those funds for 2 years of Balfour? Does anyone else see the nonsensical of a move this has become when three other teams are going for him? Trading your talent for cost controlled prospects (that can be within a two years or less of service time) should be the plan. Not players close to the end of arb or big contracts.

2. Why keep mid tier contracts and dead weight on the roster. Shields, Huff, Price, Garza all need to be examples of dealing players while their stock is high because you can not afford to keep them to far into arb.

3. Stop with the over price second tier players. Why look in to Nelson Cruz? 4 years 60 mil is way to much. That would account for 15% of our payroll and way to much for a payroll in the 100 mill.

Having a few stars on the team along with growing your Starters/bullpen through minor league cost controlled talent. Seems like gms want to max out the payroll here with half a team hold on to the stars to long and be invested way to heavy with bad contracts. The meddling between the two theories drives me nuts.

It's a balance that you have to strike. Obviously Duquette felt Johnson made the Orioles a better team in 2013. The question is really whether the return on Johnson after 2012 (versus after 2013) would have justified the expected loss of not having him on the team last year.

I thought Johnson was a good trade candidate last year. I remember that most people on this board thought that was sacrilegious. This time a year ago people way, way, way overvalued Johnson. I bet one of those people was Buck Showalter, which was also probably another roadblock to any potential trade.