Ugh. Are we going to have to blow it up?

[weams]

It's a balance that you have to strike. Obviously Duquette felt Johnson made the Orioles a better team in 2013. The question is really whether the return on Johnson after 2012 (versus after 2013) would have justified the expected loss of not having him on the team last year.

I thought Johnson was a good trade candidate last year. I remember that most people on this board thought that was sacrilegious. This time a year ago people way, way, way overvalued Johnson. I bet one of those people was Buck Showalter, which was also probably another roadblock to any potential trade.

I overvalued him. And I was wrong.

[wildbillhiccup]

It's a balance that you have to strike. Obviously Duquette felt Johnson made the Orioles a better team in 2013. The question is really whether the return on Johnson after 2012 (versus after 2013) would have justified the expected loss of not having him on the team last year.

I thought Johnson was a good trade candidate last year. I remember that most people on this board thought that was sacrilegious. This time a year ago people way, way, way overvalued Johnson. I bet one of those people was Buck Showalter, which was also probably another roadblock to any potential trade.

I agree with this 100%. I was a big proponent in trading him mid-season. Teams like the Cardinals or Tigers would have probably been willing to pay a pretty penny given the uncertainty of their closer situations early on. But instead, the Orioles traded Stop, who should have been the player they took a gamble on filling Johnson's shoes. He sure looked the part of a solid closer toward the end of last season...

[Roll Tide]

This doesn't bother anyone else?

Interesting that #orioles talked to Jason Kubel's rep about major league deal, but Kubel accepted minor league deal from Twins today.

I didn't want Kubel...but Jesus !!! We are again playing with Monopoly money

[Number5]

This doesn't bother anyone else?

I didn't want Kubel...but Jesus !!! We are again playing with Monopoly money

No.

I'm pretty sure that minor league deal was procedural move only. That way they don't have to DFA anyone from the 40-man now. Kubel probably will break camp with the team.

[Finisher]

I think Kubel just wanted to go back to Minnesota.

[brianod]

This franchise was in shambles when Buck and later, DD, took over. There was unanimous agreement that they would have to take time and build the minor leagues before we could compete again. All of us would have been happy to have a slow progress to last years record. But, 2012 happened. So, now we are back in 1997 mode. Sorry, but we tried that once and it didn't work. The money given to 30+ guys isn't just unwise, it is ridiculous. In the post steroid era, free agents aren't even close to what they get paid. So, sorry, I don't regret missing out on any of them. I'll take the under when it comes to Cano and 20 hrs in safeco. Ellsbury's assets don't translate long term. How do the Angels feel about Pujols and Hamilton?

My best guess is that we could have a payroll of 125 million without challenging Mr. Scrooge. We need to use the money to extend Davis, Machado, and yes, Hardy. Nick and Weiters can play out their contracts and go elsewhere.

I'm old enough to remember how the O's used to compete against richer teams. We need to get back to that to have any hope of long term success imho.

[El Gordo]

Sure maybe they are saving the 25 M to extend Wieters and Davis. But if they ar e that's dumb, these guys are a lock to go FA. We should use it to upgrade this year. We have a two year window to get to the WS if we spend that money wisely.

[brianod]

Sure maybe they are saving the 25 M to extend Wieters and Davis. But if they ar e that's dumb, these guys are a lock to go FA. We should use it to upgrade this year. We have a two year window to get to the WS if we spend that money wisely.

That's the kind of thinking that will guarantee we suck forever. Two year window, my rear. We have forever to get better and the way you get better is through building a solid core in the minors. We need to be patient and smart if we are going to compete with teams that have twice our payroll.

[El Gordo]

That's the kind of thinking that will guarantee we suck forever. Two year window, my rear. We have forever to get better and the way you get better is through building a solid core in the minors. We need to be patient and smart if we are going to compete with teams that have twice our payroll.

We are talking about two good players; a SP and a bat. That doesn't kill this team for the future, nor does it cost more than 25M combined. We have plenty of money we aren't spending.

[millertime]

Ourselves. That's right...us Oriole fans need to put a good potion of the blame on ourselves as crazy as that sounds. We can blame Peter Angelos for being a tight wad, a liar, a meddler, etc. and we can blame Duquette for not doing anything to improve the club so far this offseason but as just about everyone has pointed out, baseball is a business and if that is indeed the case, then we are the most naive, gullible customers there are.

Just think about this for a minute. Can you think of any other kind of business out there where you would still be a customer if that business put you through the equivalent of what the Orioles Front Office has put us through? Seriously. Let's just use a cell phone company for example. Let's assume that you were a customer of, we'll say "PA Wireless" (notice what I did there? lol). Over the years, PA Wireless makes promises to you that they will provide you with the best product possible. They promise you that you will get all sorts of new, cool features that improve your cellphone experience and also keep up with other competitor cellphone companies. They promise you that they will spend money necessary for improving your phone. Basically...they promise you that their goal is 100% customer satisfaction.

Now...let's say none of that happens. Your cellphone from PA Wireless turns out to be a pretty crappy phone, you keep waiting for all the new, cool features and they never come, you complain to the hilltops and none of your complaints are ever heard or addressed, all of the other cellphone companies out there are adding more and more key features and once in a while, PA Wireless has the nerve to up your monthly fee despite not providing you with ANYTHING they promised.

Do you see where I am going here? How long do you think you would be a customer of theirs? Or any other kind of company aside from a cellphone company for that matter?

Look...I get a lot of what everyone is saying. I have watched the Orioles for as long as I can remember and I know there are people on this board who have been watching them since way before I was even born. The past two years of winning baseball has been great to watch but unless a Christmas miracle happens and Ole St. Pete opens up his wallet and fulfills his promise to spend when the team is competitive, I just can't see the winning continuing for much longer. I can't see current players like Davis, Wieters and Jones wanting to stay here and I certainly can't see free agents wanting to come here.

So to recap, we certainly have every right to put a good portion of the blame on Angelos. I don't know him personally but I do know I loathe the fact that he is the owner of this once proud franchise. He is everything I mentioned above. He is a tight wad, he is a liar and he is a meddler. We can also certainly put a lot of the blame on Duquette as well. I don't want to hear people saying that he can't do anything because he is on a budget. Number 1, even if the Orioles are on a budget (which I think is absurd), he freed up $10M by trading Johnson, freed up Robert's salary, etc. so he has enough budget room to at least have done SOMETHING of significance to improve this club. I'm sorry...I really am trying to keep this from becoming a "rant post" but just earlier today I was reading an entire thread about Francisco Peguero and I couldn't help but laugh. Seriously? Are we that cheap and that desperate that people are excited about a AAAA player manning LF this year? Number 2, Duquette, just like any other GM the Orioles have had over the period of time that Angelos has been the owner, knew what he was getting himself into and I doubt that he or anyone else would be ok with being a "puppet" as some people like to call him. If he is truly being controlled by Angelos, then he should just resign. Why would any GM want to come to the Orioles only to not be allowed to do their job and have not only a fanbase turn against you, but national media outlets as well? McPhail may not have been liked by many people but I for one loved him because he made bold moves. Some worked and some didn't but at least he had the cojones to make the moves he did. Without that, we wouldn't have Chris Davis or Adam Jones or JJ Hardy or Matt Wieters. So people can say all they want that Duquette can't do anything because Angelos is pulling all the strings but I don't believe that for one minute. Finally, the rest of the blame goes on us because we continue to believe that PA Wireless...er...I mean...the Oriole's Front Office will change. Year after year after year after year. We all know the definition of insanity right???

That's all I have to say so now you can all let me have it like you usually do and tell me that I am completely clueless. I'm ready! Lol.

[OFFNY]

This franchise was in shambles when Buck and later, DD, took over. There was unanimous agreement that they would have to take time and build the minor leagues before we could compete again. All of us would have been happy to have a slow progress to last years record. But, 2012 happened. So, now we are back in 1997 mode. Sorry, but we tried that once and it didn't work. The money given to 30+ guys isn't just unwise, it is ridiculous. In the post steroid era, free agents aren't even close to what they get paid. So, sorry, I don't regret missing out on any of them. I'll take the under when it comes to Cano and 20 hrs in safeco. Ellsbury's assets don't translate long term. How do the Angels feel about Pujols and Hamilton?

My best guess is that we could have a payroll of 125 million without challenging Mr. Scrooge. We need to use the money to extend Davis, Machado, and yes, Hardy. Nick and Weiters can play out their contracts and go elsewhere.

I'm old enough to remember how the O's used to compete against richer teams. We need to get back to that to have any hope of long term success imho.

You're the guy that started this thread BEFORE the 2012 season:

My Bold Prediction: The Orioles will win A.L. East in 2012

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/119664-My-Bold-Prediction

They didn't win the division, but they went 93-69, made the post-season, and came a lot closer to your hypothesis (2 games behind the division winners) than almost any other Oriole fan or baseball "expert" dared dream.

They followed that up with a disappointing, but respectable 85-77 campaign in 2013.

I'll certainly give you the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season, and concede that you may be correct in your analysis of the 2014 Orioles and beyond.

[El Gordo]

Well I agree with what you say, but I don't fault DD. He wanted back into baseball, took this crappy job, and has done an amazing job so far. I think the best thing we can do is take up a collection for a contract on PA. Just kidding... I think.

[Napoleon Solo]

You can always discard said phone and choose another brand, no cancellation fee.

I can only speak for myself but I dont invest emotionally into my phone so the analogy isnt apt for me personally.

[Three Run Homer]

This franchise was in shambles when Buck and later, DD, took over. There was unanimous agreement that they would have to take time and build the minor leagues before we could compete again. All of us would have been happy to have a slow progress to last years record. But, 2012 happened. So, now we are back in 1997 mode. Sorry, but we tried that once and it didn't work. The money given to 30+ guys isn't just unwise, it is ridiculous. In the post steroid era, free agents aren't even close to what they get paid. So, sorry, I don't regret missing out on any of them. I'll take the under when it comes to Cano and 20 hrs in safeco. Ellsbury's assets don't translate long term. How do the Angels feel about Pujols and Hamilton?

My best guess is that we could have a payroll of 125 million without challenging Mr. Scrooge. We need to use the money to extend Davis, Machado, and yes, Hardy. Nick and Weiters can play out their contracts and go elsewhere.

I'm old enough to remember how the O's used to compete against richer teams. We need to get back to that to have any hope of long term success imho.

I don't think most posters on this board want a return to 1997 or even to 2005. I haven't seen anyone here clamoring for Robinson Cano or Jacoby Ellsbury. Some people would like us to sign Choo, because he fits our team's need for OBP, and many people would like to see us make a run at Garza, because he's the best starter available and wouldn't cost a draft pick. But I think most of us have accepted that the O's can't afford to spend top dollar on the very cream of the crop--and don't really need to, considering that they already have stars under contract for next season.

For the most part, people around here just want the O's to make modest upgrades at positions where they were weak last year--LF, DH, 2B, mid-rotation starter. They are distressed by the fact that the O's are demonstrably a weaker team right now than they were at the end of last season, due to the losses of Feldman, McLouth and JJ, and the team doesn't seem to be committed to replacing those players with comparable or better players.

[Three Run Homer]

The Orioles evaluated him to be a LF or DH. Without power. Those guys play in Houston. Bud does have value BTW. You could flip him right now if you wanted to.

A guy with his great OBP that Struggled to put up a .750 OPS in the minors. Think about that. He does not have speed either. Great kid. Great idea. Too bad he is not a second baseman.

I don't mind the fact that we traded LJ Hoes.

I do mind the fact that we seem destined to give substantial playing time at LF and DH next season to guys who are even lesser prospects than LJ Hoes.