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Talks stall on trade for Roberts-Suntimes


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http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/748982,CST-SPT-cub19.article

Talks stall on trade for Roberts

NO DEAL | Source says Orioles' Angelos nixed 7-for-2 swap for infielder, Bedard

January 19, 2008

BY GORDON WITTENMYER gwittenmyer@suntimes.com

With less than four weeks left before pitchers and catchers report to camp, the Cubs are still pushing hard to add players, but their long-running efforts to make a deal with the Baltimore Orioles may have hit a dead end.

According to a Cubs source, Orioles owner Peter Angelos killed a 7-for-2 trade this week that would have sent second baseman Brian Roberts, an Angelos favorite, and left-handed pitcher Erik Bedard to the Cubs.

Cubs manager Lou Piniella said Friday he no longer thinks the Cubs will be able to add an infielder via trade before spring training.

Late Friday night, an Orioles source said there was no 7-for-2 deal and downplayed the level of talks between the teams.

Whatever went down between the teams this week, it's clear the Cubs' thinking has changed on the imminence of acquiring the speedy Roberts, a switch-hitter whom many in the organization believe could redefine the top of the Cubs' order.

Cubs manager Lou Piniella said Friday he no longer thinks the Cubs will be able to add an infielder via trade before spring training. He talked about not being left-handed enough in his lineup this season.

''I don't think we're going to do anything, to be honest with you,'' he said when asked about trading for an infielder. ''If we do, it'll be in the outfield. ... It would be a right-handed bat to help out in center field. I would think that's probably a possibility, as opposed to the other things you all have been hearing about.''

One club source confirmed that possibility would be Texas Rangers outfielder Marlon Byrd, who avoided arbitration this week by agreeing to a one-year, $1.8 million contract.

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Obviously, he is either meddling and our front office is constantly trying to save face by saying he isn't, or his reputation proceeds him and people are jumping to conclusions. I guess it really wouldn't matter if deals were being made.[/B]

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Who were the seven player "said" to be offered?

No mention, however if both Bedard and Roberts were offered in a 7 for 2, we'd be looking at something like> Pie, Murton, *Vitters (PTBNL), Cedeno, Gallagher, Veal, Patterson. *-That is IF Hill is untouchable... IF.

The inclusion of Vitters will draw scrutiny, as it is unusual to complete such a transaction. However, while I understand the unlikelyhood of such a thing,under these circumstances it has merit. The Cubs would rather deal Vitters than Marmol or Hill at this time, so while Vitters is a great young prospect, he is years away from the majors, and the Cubs are in win-now mode. In the above proposal the Cubs lose only Pie from their projected lineup, affording them the chance to keep their base team intact and allow them the chance to add two great pieces to their championship run. Getting Bedard and Roberts in that package would be a coup, and would give the Orioles a great base of talent to add to our organization as we rebuild with an eye on tomorrow.

I see the deals broken down seperately this way to make it easier to decipher the values>

Bedard for Pie, Vitters, Veal, Murton

Roberts for Gallagher, Cedeno, Patterson

For those who don't know what 'PTBNL' means, it stands for Player To Be Named Later. Essentially, IIRC, we would not receive Vitters until August 16th, as we must wait 1 full year from the day he signed to deal for him, hence the PTBNL designation. He's worth the wait.

From BA...

1. Josh Vitters, 3b Born: Aug. 27, 1989 • B-T: R-R • Ht: 6-3 • Wt: 200

Drafted: HS—Cypress, Calif., 2007 (1st round)

Background: Vitters pretty much cemented his status as a first-rounder in the summer before his senior year. After failing to make the U.S. junior team, he lit up the showcase circuit instead. He won MVP honors at the Cape Cod Classic, ranked as the top prospect at the Area Code Games and smacked three doubles at the Aflac Classic, all in the span of two weeks. Vitters didn't disappoint last spring, either, hitting .390 with nine homers in 24 games despite a bout with pneumonia and earning first-team All-America honors. The only question was how high he'd go in the 2007 draft. Both the Cubs (picking third) and the Pirates (fourth) coveted him, but the Royals seemed set on taking him at No. 2 the night before the draft. Then Kansas City decided California prep infielder Mike Moustakas would be signable, allowing Vitters to fall to Chicago. He became the highest draft pick in Cypress (Calif.) High history, going five spots higher than Scott Moore (a former Cubs farmhand) did to the Tigers five years earlier. Vitters held out all summer before officially signing minutes before the Aug. 15 deadline expired, landing a $3.2 million bonus. Rusty after his long layoff, he went just 6-for-51 (.118), but that didn't diminish the Cubs' enthusiasm about him. His brother Christian is an infielder in the Athletics system.

Strengths: There's still debate as to which tool is more impressive, Vitters' hitting ability or his power, but the consensus is that his future potential grades as a 70 on the 20-80 scouting scale in both categories. He's the rare righthanded hitter whose swing gets described as pretty, and his bat speed and feel for putting the barrel on the ball are also uncommon. He can crush the ball to all fields and hammers fastballs and offspeed pitches alike. Defense doesn't come as easily to Vitters, but he has plenty of arm strength and reliable hands, so he should become an average third baseman. His work ethic will allow him to put in all of the time he needs at the hot corner. The Cubs also love his makeup, and he fit in well with teammates at his two minor league stops and in instructional league.

Weaknesses: Vitters made five errors in nine pro games at third base, and his biggest defensive shortcomings are his agility and his ability to read hops. He addressed both areas in instructional league, doing a lot of jump-rope work to quicken his lower half and taking hundreds of ground balls. Chicago writes off his lackluster debut to being more gung-ho than prepared after three months without game action. He got a little pull-conscious, but his stroke looked as sound as ever despite his numbers. Once he fills out, he'll be a below-average runner, though he shouldn't be a liability on the bases.

The Future: Aramis Ramirez is signed through 2011, which could create a dilemma because Vitters' bat should be ready for the majors well before then. But the presence of Ramirez and the depth of third basemen throughout the system also will make it easy for the Cubs to let Vitters develop at his own pace. He'll begin his first full pro season at low Class A Peoria.

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I included the link to the whole article and the authors info if anyone wants to directly address the author. I don't know what to believe, but if trades were being made the Angelos meddling stuff wouldn't be an issue. I'm not saying to trade Bedard and Roberts for trash just to trade them. I do think the Oakland, Florida, and Tejada deals suggest we should be able to make fair deals before Feb.

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No mention, however if both Bedard and Roberts were offered in a 7 for 2, we'd be looking at something like> Pie, Murton, *Vitters (PTBNL), Cedeno, Gallagher, Veal, Patterson. *-That is IF Hill is untouchable... IF.

The inclusion of Vitters will draw scrutiny, as it is unusual to complete such a transaction. However, while I understand the unlikelyhood of such a thing,under these circumstances it has merit. The Cubs would rather deal Vitters than Marmol or Hill at this time, so while Vitters is a great young prospect, he is years away from the majors, and the Cubs are in win-now mode. In the above proposal the Cubs lose only Pie from their projected lineup, affording them the chance to keep their base team intact and allow them the chance to add two great pieces to their championship run. Getting Bedard and Roberts in that package would be a coup, and would give the Orioles a great base of talent to add to our organization as we rebuild with an eye on tomorrow.

I see the deals broken down seperately this way to make it easier to decipher the values>

Bedard for Pie, Vitters, Veal, Murton

Roberts for Gallagher, Cedeno, Patterson

For those who don't know what 'PTBNL' means, it stands for Player To Be Named Later. Essentially, IIRC, we would not receive Vitters until August 16th, as we must wait 1 full year from the day he signed to deal for him, hence the PTBNL designation. He's worth the wait.

From BA...

1. Josh Vitters, 3b Born: Aug. 27, 1989 • B-T: R-R • Ht: 6-3 • Wt: 200

Drafted: HS—Cypress, Calif., 2007 (1st round)

Background: Vitters pretty much cemented his status as a first-rounder in the summer before his senior year. After failing to make the U.S. junior team, he lit up the showcase circuit instead. He won MVP honors at the Cape Cod Classic, ranked as the top prospect at the Area Code Games and smacked three doubles at the Aflac Classic, all in the span of two weeks. Vitters didn't disappoint last spring, either, hitting .390 with nine homers in 24 games despite a bout with pneumonia and earning first-team All-America honors. The only question was how high he'd go in the 2007 draft. Both the Cubs (picking third) and the Pirates (fourth) coveted him, but the Royals seemed set on taking him at No. 2 the night before the draft. Then Kansas City decided California prep infielder Mike Moustakas would be signable, allowing Vitters to fall to Chicago. He became the highest draft pick in Cypress (Calif.) High history, going five spots higher than Scott Moore (a former Cubs farmhand) did to the Tigers five years earlier. Vitters held out all summer before officially signing minutes before the Aug. 15 deadline expired, landing a $3.2 million bonus. Rusty after his long layoff, he went just 6-for-51 (.118), but that didn't diminish the Cubs' enthusiasm about him. His brother Christian is an infielder in the Athletics system.

Strengths: There's still debate as to which tool is more impressive, Vitters' hitting ability or his power, but the consensus is that his future potential grades as a 70 on the 20-80 scouting scale in both categories. He's the rare righthanded hitter whose swing gets described as pretty, and his bat speed and feel for putting the barrel on the ball are also uncommon. He can crush the ball to all fields and hammers fastballs and offspeed pitches alike. Defense doesn't come as easily to Vitters, but he has plenty of arm strength and reliable hands, so he should become an average third baseman. His work ethic will allow him to put in all of the time he needs at the hot corner. The Cubs also love his makeup, and he fit in well with teammates at his two minor league stops and in instructional league.

Weaknesses: Vitters made five errors in nine pro games at third base, and his biggest defensive shortcomings are his agility and his ability to read hops. He addressed both areas in instructional league, doing a lot of jump-rope work to quicken his lower half and taking hundreds of ground balls. Chicago writes off his lackluster debut to being more gung-ho than prepared after three months without game action. He got a little pull-conscious, but his stroke looked as sound as ever despite his numbers. Once he fills out, he'll be a below-average runner, though he shouldn't be a liability on the bases.

The Future: Aramis Ramirez is signed through 2011, which could create a dilemma because Vitters' bat should be ready for the majors well before then. But the presence of Ramirez and the depth of third basemen throughout the system also will make it easy for the Cubs to let Vitters develop at his own pace. He'll begin his first full pro season at low Class A Peoria.

Thanks for the nice information. IF this was a deal that was offered, I think I would be for it.

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That assessment contradicts what Orioles president Andy MacPhail told me a few hours ago. He insisted that nothing has changed and nothing is dead, and labeled rumors of a proposed 7-for-2 trade between the clubs as “pure fiction.”

The two Orioles in this scenario are Roberts and Erik Bedard, and it’s conceivable that the Cubs inquired about obtaining both of them. If that’s true, it doesn’t sound like the talks progressed very far, judging by MacPhail’s reaction

From Roch's latest article.
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No mention, however if both Bedard and Roberts were offered in a 7 for 2, we'd be looking at something like> Pie, Murton, *Vitters (PTBNL), Cedeno, Gallagher, Veal, Patterson. *-That is IF Hill is untouchable... IF.

The inclusion of Vitters will draw scrutiny, as it is unusual to complete such a transaction. However, while I understand the unlikelyhood of such a thing,under these circumstances it has merit. The Cubs would rather deal Vitters than Marmol or Hill at this time, so while Vitters is a great young prospect, he is years away from the majors, and the Cubs are in win-now mode. In the above proposal the Cubs lose only Pie from their projected lineup, affording them the chance to keep their base team intact and allow them the chance to add two great pieces to their championship run. Getting Bedard and Roberts in that package would be a coup, and would give the Orioles a great base of talent to add to our organization as we rebuild with an eye on tomorrow.

I see the deals broken down seperately this way to make it easier to decipher the values>

Bedard for Pie, Vitters, Veal, Murton

Roberts for Gallagher, Cedeno, Patterson

For those who don't know what 'PTBNL' means, it stands for Player To Be Named Later. Essentially, IIRC, we would not receive Vitters until August 16th, as we must wait 1 full year from the day he signed to deal for him, hence the PTBNL designation. He's worth the wait.

From BA...

1. Josh Vitters, 3b Born: Aug. 27, 1989 • B-T: R-R • Ht: 6-3 • Wt: 200

Drafted: HS—Cypress, Calif., 2007 (1st round)

Background: Vitters pretty much cemented his status as a first-rounder in the summer before his senior year. After failing to make the U.S. junior team, he lit up the showcase circuit instead. He won MVP honors at the Cape Cod Classic, ranked as the top prospect at the Area Code Games and smacked three doubles at the Aflac Classic, all in the span of two weeks. Vitters didn't disappoint last spring, either, hitting .390 with nine homers in 24 games despite a bout with pneumonia and earning first-team All-America honors. The only question was how high he'd go in the 2007 draft. Both the Cubs (picking third) and the Pirates (fourth) coveted him, but the Royals seemed set on taking him at No. 2 the night before the draft. Then Kansas City decided California prep infielder Mike Moustakas would be signable, allowing Vitters to fall to Chicago. He became the highest draft pick in Cypress (Calif.) High history, going five spots higher than Scott Moore (a former Cubs farmhand) did to the Tigers five years earlier. Vitters held out all summer before officially signing minutes before the Aug. 15 deadline expired, landing a $3.2 million bonus. Rusty after his long layoff, he went just 6-for-51 (.118), but that didn't diminish the Cubs' enthusiasm about him. His brother Christian is an infielder in the Athletics system.

Strengths: There's still debate as to which tool is more impressive, Vitters' hitting ability or his power, but the consensus is that his future potential grades as a 70 on the 20-80 scouting scale in both categories. He's the rare righthanded hitter whose swing gets described as pretty, and his bat speed and feel for putting the barrel on the ball are also uncommon. He can crush the ball to all fields and hammers fastballs and offspeed pitches alike. Defense doesn't come as easily to Vitters, but he has plenty of arm strength and reliable hands, so he should become an average third baseman. His work ethic will allow him to put in all of the time he needs at the hot corner. The Cubs also love his makeup, and he fit in well with teammates at his two minor league stops and in instructional league.

Weaknesses: Vitters made five errors in nine pro games at third base, and his biggest defensive shortcomings are his agility and his ability to read hops. He addressed both areas in instructional league, doing a lot of jump-rope work to quicken his lower half and taking hundreds of ground balls. Chicago writes off his lackluster debut to being more gung-ho than prepared after three months without game action. He got a little pull-conscious, but his stroke looked as sound as ever despite his numbers. Once he fills out, he'll be a below-average runner, though he shouldn't be a liability on the bases.

The Future: Aramis Ramirez is signed through 2011, which could create a dilemma because Vitters' bat should be ready for the majors well before then. But the presence of Ramirez and the depth of third basemen throughout the system also will make it easy for the Cubs to let Vitters develop at his own pace. He'll begin his first full pro season at low Class A Peoria.

Can 2007 draftees be traded now?

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I will give PA the benefit of the doubt that we were not offered that, nor did he turn it down..

However, Greg is certainly right about who the names would be..

No doubt about these 6

Pie

Veal

Murton

Gallagher

Cedeno

Patterson

1 of these 4

Marshall

Fuld

Marmol

Vitters (PTBNL)

All things considered, that is a pretty large haul... I liked Greg's analysis of the logic to both sides.

The problem with this is that the reports seem to indicate that Hill was involved in the 7.

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I will give PA the benefit of the doubt that we were not offered that, nor did he turn it down..

However, Greg is certainly right about who the names would be..

No doubt about these 6

Pie

Veal

Murton

Gallagher

Cedeno

Patterson

1 of these 4

Marshall

Fuld

Marmol

Vitters (PTBNL)

All things considered, that is a pretty large haul... I liked Greg's analysis of the logic to both sides.

Large haul yes...Quality haul? That is a different story.

Roch mentions in his latest blog that Hill would have been in the deal(well he said that in so many words).

I would need to be something like Hill, Pie, Gallagher, Veal, Marmol, Murton and Cedeno/EPat for me to consider it and even then, I am not sure.

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