Which of these pitchers would you put in the Hall of Fame between now and 2024?

[srock]

Kind of like if you added Jim Johnson's career to Mike Cuellar's.

Exactly. Such a feat is extremely rare. Being top notch at two parts of the game is an intriguing argument for the HOF.

Ruth did it, pitching and hitting. For him, his bat puts him in alone.

I can't think of other examples.

[Frobby]

Exactly. Such a feat is extremely rare. Being top notch at two parts of the game is an intriguing argument for the HOF.

Ruth did it, pitching and hitting. For him, his bat puts him in alone.

I can't think of other examples.

Dennis Eckersly.

[DrungoHazewood]

Exactly. Such a feat is extremely rare. Being top notch at two parts of the game is an intriguing argument for the HOF.

Ruth did it, pitching and hitting. For him, his bat puts him in alone.

I can't think of other examples.

Except that closing isn't a distinct thing from pitching, and it's not unique skill set that other great pitchers don't have. I think you can assume that most, if not all, HOF starters could have been very good, excellent, or even legendary relievers. In fact, I have to think that most of the best relievers of all time never got the chance because they were way more valuable starting. Essentially every pitcher is better in shorter outings, so I have to assume someone like Randy Johnson or Roger Clemens or Pedro could have been as effective as any reliever ever.

I think Smoltz' feat would be more like a shortstop getting injured, then moving to DH and being a top-notch DH, but then moving back to SS after a number of years. Or maybe substitute "pinch hitter" for "DH". Unique. Interesting. But no more valuable (and probably less valuable) than if he'd just continued in his prior role.

[Frobby]

Generally, I like to see an average of 2-3 players per year getting inducted into the Hall of Fame. I think that's the right volume. So, basically that's about one pitcher per year. These ten guys over a ten-year period would be about right for me.

I'm a bit surprised that Pettitte hasn't gotten a single vote here. I can pretty much guarantee he'll get pretty serious consideration from the actual HOF voters, if they get over the PED issue.

[DrungoHazewood]

If Clemens had retired after 1996 instead of going to the Jays he would have 81 rWAR. Or about 15 more than Jim Palmer. He would still easily top the average HOF starter.

To continue this... if Clemens had retired after 1997, he would have as many win titles, K titles, ERA titles as Sandy Koufax, more career wins, and a lower ERA+. Basically, Clemens minus the last 11 years of his career is a better HOF candidate than Sandy Koufax.

[Larry18]

I think the veterans committee is the best place for the PED players.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think the veterans committee is the best place for the PED players.

Well... at least the more recent PED users, might allow for some better context before making rash decisions. The BBWAA has inducted countless PED users in the past.

[Migrant Redbird]

The part which frustrates me is that (1) fans and pundits assume they know which players used PEDs -- even when it hasn't been proven -- and (2) they assume they know WHEN the players were using.

That's the basis for the arguments that Clemens and Bonds had already earned HOF selection BEFORE they began using steroids. Why does anyone think they know?

All we know about Bonds is that when he hooked up with BALCO, he got the benefit of the most advanced and sophisticated expertise on using PEDs effectively and undetectably. Why should we think that Bonds wasn't using PEDs before he hooked up with BALCO?

[Can_of_corn]

The part which frustrates me is that (1) fans and pundits assume they know which players used PEDs -- even when it hasn't been proven -- and (2) they assume they know WHEN the players were using.

That's the basis for the arguments that Clemens and Bonds had already earned HOF selection BEFORE they began using steroids. Why does anyone think they know?

All we know about Bonds is that when he hooked up with BALCO, he got the benefit of the most advanced and sophisticated expertise on using PEDs effectively and undetectably. Why should we think that Bonds wasn't using PEDs before he hooked up with BALCO?

Don't forget the fans that are 100% sure one favorite or another didn't use steroids.

"Well there is no way player X used!" "Player Y couldn't have used, he wasn't all huge."

We don't know who used, who didn't use, and when they were used.

[srock]

Dennis Eckersly.

I just looked at his numbers, and honestly I didn't think his starting career was as good as it was.

He is in the HOF so he supports my argument for Smoltz.

[OFFNY]

I just looked at his numbers, and honestly I didn't think his starting career was as good as it was.

He is in the H.O.F., so he supports my argument for Smoltz.

Strangely enough, in the Cardinals' 132-year franchise history, Smoltz holds the record for most consecutive strikeouts by a Cardinal ......... and, he did it in his very first game as a Cardinal, and at the age of 42. :eektf:

Considering the Cardinals' very long and very rich history of all-time great pitchers (Bob Gibson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Steve Carlton, Dizzy Dean, etc.), that is pretty freaky, especially considering that Smoltz was well past his prime when he accomplished it, and that he did it in his very first game as a Cardinal.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN200908230.shtml