Like Father Like Son Angelos Family

[JohnD]

Every time I think about John Angelos I think back to a story I heard once from around 2003.

Around the time the O's were about to trade Ponson to the Giants, there was debate about who to get in return. You'll remember it was Kurt Ainsworth, Damian Moss, and Ryan Hannagan, or something to that effect. He never got higher than AA, if he even left Frederick.

Joe Nathan was one of the names being considered, but apparently he and some other front office sorts came in and said something to the effect of (not a direct quote here, just the basic gist of how I heard the situation went) "nah, no one has heard of him. But this Damian Moss guy has won some games at the big league level. Let's get him instead."

This is something like second or third hand info. I can't remember who exactly told me.

[Redskins Rick]

Would be interesting if someone bought MASN and then bought the Gnats.

didnt think the Gnats were for sale.

[atomic]

Would be interesting if someone bought MASN and then bought the Gnats.

I don't think it would help the team as I am sure the price would be high enough on the open market that they wouldn't make any more profits than if they bought any other cable network.

[TonySoprano]

Every time I think about John Angelos I think back to a story I heard once from around 2003.

Around the time the O's were about to trade Ponson to the Giants, there was debate about who to get in return. You'll remember it was Kurt Ainsworth, Damian Moss, and Ryan Hannagan, or something to that effect. He never got higher than AA, if he even left Frederick.

Joe Nathan was one of the names being considered, but apparently he and some other front office sorts came in and said something to the effect of (not a direct quote here, just the basic gist of how I heard the situation went) "nah, no one has heard of him. But this Damian Moss guy has won some games at the big league level. Let's get him instead."

This is something like second or third hand info. I can't remember who exactly told me.

Now you've got me going down memory lane.

In fairness, what we know about Lou Angelos is a bit dated, but that's because he has been away from the team, and out of the press, for several years. In my opinion, John botched the negotiation for a new Spring Training home, and Peter and Andy had to fix things.

From "The Story of Camden Yards" by Thom Loverro

p. 232

Angelos, not Hemond, Melvin, or Robinson, called most of the shots for the 1994 roster. He told them to sign left-handed pitcher Sid Fernandez, who got a $9 million, three-year contract. Angelos says he told them to sign closer Lee Smith, who got a one-year deal. But Angelos had some help. He was getting advice from a very close source---his sons, John and Lou Angelos. John had graduated from law school, and Lou was still going to law school, but both were rabid baseball fans. When their father purchased the team, they, and not the front office, became his advisors on baseball personnel matters.

p.234

But John and Lou Angelos also pushed the Orioles to sign Fernandez, who turned out to be a bust, injured throughout much of the 1994 season, and into 1995 as well. This forced Peter Angelos to trade him to Philadelphia and eat about $2 million of his remaining salary. "They didn't want to sign Sid," John Angelos said. "My father called them and said he wanted him signed---tomorrow."

p.235

The Angelos sons are out in the open now in their roles in the Orioles organization, as was witnessed at the press conference last fall to hire new GM Frank Wren. The stories of their behind-the-scenes involvement only helped to feed the image of fantasy baseball fanatics playing with a major league team.

Frank Wren as quoted in "From 33rd Street to Camden Yards" by John Eisenberg

p.484

Maybe he has only fired one GM, but he has made them all so miserable that they leave. That's his MO, to make you so miserable that you have to leave. I resigned two weeks after I took the job. I had seen more than enough. I couldn't deal with that level of involvement from Peter and his boys. You needed approval for things and the approval process dragged on forever, so long that you couldn't hardly get anything done. I had all these vacancies to fill when I took over, and I was having trouble even getting people in for interviews. And there were all these 'suggestions' being made. The level of involvement was very high. I walked in and quit after two weeks. He talked me out of it. Lasting eleven months was a chore.

I can't find the article, but there was a story about how Wren was on the phone with another executive, and John joined in on the party line. Wren told him to get off the phone, and John went to his father to complain.

Largely overshadowed by the more publicized installation of general manager Frank Wren and his front office entourage, John Angelos has graduated to Orioles executive vice president, making him the club's third-ranking official behind his father, majority owner and chairman Peter Angelos, and chief operating officer Joe Foss.

The move places John Angelos in charge of day-to-day administrative operations, a role formerly held exclusively by Foss.

source - Baltimore Sun, Mar 1, 1999

[atomic]

Now you've got me going down memory lane.

Maybe MacPhail quitting is true then. I wonder how long DD will last. I am guessing a bit longer than most as he was out of baseball for so long. If you have been out of work for 10 years it does make you willing to suffer a little more than the average employee. I had a girlfriend who had an interview with Angelos law firm. They called her back and said they wanted to hire her they just needed approval form above and that it would take a couple of weeks. Months later they were saying the same thing. Seems to be a pattern.

[Redskins Rick]

Maybe MacPhail quitting is true then. I wonder how long DD will last. I am guessing a bit longer than most as he was out of baseball for so long. If you have been out of work for 10 years it does make you willing to suffer a little more than the average employee.

I think it depends on your own financial situation, and if you have to work.

[Spoonless]

Man, they have a sample issue of that magazine on their site that you can read. I looked into their subscription. It's ?149.00 for a subscription, which works out to around $244. I guess I'll pass on that. :laughlol:

[mi_oriolesfan]

The stories of their behind-the-scenes involvement only helped to feed the image of fantasy baseball fanatics playing with a major league team.

Doesn't require effort? Hmm. Must be more like that fantasy baseball fanatic that misses the draft and doesn't log in until half way through the season.

[spiritof66]

Estate taxes should not be a concern if PA has done the correct planning. He could put his O's stock in a series of Grantor Retained Annuity Trusts (GRATs) and move substantial amounts of O's stock out of his estate. I won't get into the mechanics of a GRAT but you can check it out on Google. In fact, the needed liquidity to pay dividends on the GRAT structure is probably why there seems to be a cap on payroll. Billionaires that properly plan don't get hit by the estate tax. This $200 million plus estate tax bill that is brought up from time to time will not materialize unless PA has failed to do the proper planning.

After reading everything I could find written about PA in the past few years (and I didn't find much), I could discern out just one rational basis for him not to spend freely for 2012-14, which would appear to represent his last shot at getting to the World Series: a desire to hoard enough cash to enable his heirs to pay estate taxes and retain the team without becoming cash-strapped, as the best way to ensure that the Orioles will stay in Baltimore. I posted a long comment explaining my reasoning. http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/137952-Angelos-Vent-Thread/page13

While I obviously know nothing about PA's estate planning, I question whether he has availed himself of GRATs or other trust mechanisms. First, I don't think he would be willing to give up his ownership and control of any shares in the Orioles during his lifetime. Second, I am guessing that the transfer of Orioles shares to a trust would require MLB approval. I can't recall the circumstances, but I seem to remember reading, probably 10 or so years ago, that MLB disfavors structures other than outright ownership because of a concern about disputes over ownership and their possible effect on a franchise. I don't know whether that would be an obstacle for PA, but it might be.

In any event, you say that the obligation to make current payments would explain PA's unwillingness to spend freely, so you get to the same place: PA has set and adhered to a budget that constricts the team's payroll not because he thinks that spending wouldn't help the team, and not because the Orioles operations (including their MASN interest) don't yield the cash and create the value to spend more, but because of his estate plans, which are motivated by a desire to ensure that the team stays in Baltimore. He can, and probably does, perceive as civic virtue what most of us see as miserliness. I just don't see any other logical explanation for PA's not being willing to spend another $25-$35 million this year to get to the post-season.

[TonySoprano]

Maybe MacPhail quitting is true then. I wonder how long DD will last. I am guessing a bit longer than most as he was out of baseball for so long. If you have been out of work for 10 years it does make you willing to suffer a little more than the average employee. I had a girlfriend who had an interview with Angelos law firm. They called her back and said they wanted to hire her they just needed approval form above and that it would take a couple of weeks. Months later they were saying the same thing. Seems to be a pattern.

In fairness, I think Andy left to spend more time with his father in Lee's last days.

[jabba72]

I'm not real excited about the Angelos boys ownership era. But can it be worse than their fathers work? Lord I hope not. But I think we can put to bed the idea that Angelos will be selling the team.

Exactly. Noway can John Boy be worse. But I've never really heard good things about Angelos sons and the team either.

[Roll Tide]

Not only that but the OP is upset because Angelos doesn't want to mortgage the future for one shot at a ring.

Heaven forbid we get a team that consistently wins around here.

I guess Birdland would have been happy as a Jays fan last offseason.

But it won't happen if all of your additions in few agency are AAAA or scrap heap guys.

[Can_of_corn]

But it won't happen if all of your additions in few agency are AAAA or scrap heap guys.

Better that then the next Hamilton or Pujols.

[BradyBunch]

I understand that, but if you were the new owner would you buy one without the other?

MASN would be sold off first then a new owner would be sought. It'll probably be sold in the near future due to the Nat's dispute. And if you are looking to own a team you are looking a revenue of the team not the asset that is owned separately and is not under your full control.

[Ohfan67]

Did anybody actually read this article? If so, could you elaborate on the interview with Angelos? Thanks.