Jeter to Retire After 2014 Season

[Satyr3206]

He's a Skankee, who cares.

[weams]

He's a Skankee, who cares.

Really. Really.

[weams]

Lets be fair. Wainright LATER APOLOGIZED for even inferring he "grooved one" to Jeter and now completely distances himself from the implication. Additionally, it still takes talent to hit a fastball at 92 MPH and no amount of love for Ripken should undervalue what Jeter did last night and for the game for the last two decades.Jeter was and is a class act and no amount of Oriole love should attempt to diminish that. Period.

Of course Wainright apologized. But let's face it Roy, Jeter's a Yankee. He is the personification of all things Yankee. We don't have to fan the flames of that overblown media crush. He's not as good as Bobby Grich. think about that for a few minutes.

[weams]

Not as good as Bobby Grich??What??

Grich had a long peak, but had an injury right in the middle of it. As a result, he looks like he has two peaks—and they are very different. The first peak, with the Orioles from age 23 to 27, was heavy on defense with some solid offense thrown in. In those five seasons, he averaged 6.4 WAR thanks to an average of 22 batting runs and 13 fielding runs per season. In the five seasons from age 30 to 34 (now with the California Angels), he averaged 4.8 WAR per season, with 26 batting runs and just about one fielding run per season.

In 1973, Grich had perhaps the best defensive season ever for a second baseman (by Total Zone). He won the first of four consecutive Gold Gloves. In the strike-shortened 1981 season, Grich became the first second baseman since Rogers Hornsby to lead the league in home runs (Grich tied with several others). He won his only SIlver Slugger award that year. He also was part of six all star teams, starting three times (twice at second base and once at shortstop).

Grich's career totals—1833 hits, 224 home runs, 864 RBI, 104 stolen bases—are not what you usually see from a Hall of Fame second baseman. Even his .266 batting average looks low to the casual fan. But his combination of patience, power, and defense along with the fact that he played in a low-offense era makes him the perfect storm of underratedness. Even the slightly less modern stat OPS+ has him at 125, in the neighborhood with such Hall of Famers as Rickey Henderson, Johnny Bench, Ron Santo, and fellow second baseman Charlie Gehringer.

70.9 WAR to 72.1 with 17 years to 20 year. I'm right.

[Hallas]

But, at least if he didn't have the full season's worth of postseason play thanks to Steinbrenner's money, his case is no stronger than Bill Dahlen or Alan Trammell or Lou Whitaker or Bobby Grich. Who not only weren't first ballot, they're not even in. Jeter is being talked about as being the first unanimous selection. Alan Trammell was just as good and he's hoping he lives long enough for the Vet's Committee to get around to him in 2030.

But it's not much different than Phil Rizzuto - he's in because he's a Yank with a lot of rings. Even though there might be 15 better/eligible shortstops who aren't in.

I think this is poo-pooing Jeter's HO resume a bit. He is 10th in career WAR among all SS in history, and the only ones in the top 15 not in the HOF are Trammell, Bill Dahlen, and ARod. ARod is active (and not getting in obviously) so the real crime here is that Trammell needs to hope for a Vet's committee induction, and that Dahlen was never selected. Trammell not being in is a different discussion, but it should not reflect poorly on Jeter. In Dahlen's case, I think it's really challenging when the bulk of his most productive years happened before 1900.

You might make the case that he'd be a 2nd ballot HOFer without the Yankee allure (I think Larkin was inducted on his 2nd or 3rd ballot) but it could go either way. Given the caliber of people behind him in career value, I would have zero qualms with him being inducted on the first ballot.

[ledzepp8]

Not as good as Bobby Grich??What??

Jeter has played 2685 games. If he plays every game the rest of this season, he'll end up with 2753 games played. He's at 72.1 rWAR right now. I'll be generous and say he ends the season (and career) at 73.0 rWAR.

Bobby Grich had 70.9 rWAR in 2008 games played. If the above estimates hold true, 740+ games less than Jeter and about 2.0 rWAR less...but in far less games. There's a pretty good argument to make that Bobby Grich was the better player. Or if you get right down to it, if Bobby Grich had played for the Yankees for 17 seasons, he would have been Derek Jeter Pt 1.

[weams]

Jeter has played 2685 games. If he plays every game the rest of this season, he'll end up with 2753 games played. He's at 72.1 rWAR right now. I'll be generous and say he ends the season (and career) at 73.0 rWAR.

Bobby Grich had 70.9 rWAR in 2008 games played. If the above estimates hold true, 740+ games less than Jeter and about 2.0 rWAR less...but in far less games. There's a pretty good argument to make that Bobby Grich was the better player. Or if you get right down to it, if Bobby Grich had played for the Yankees for 17 seasons, he would have been Derek Jeter Pt 1.

Look at it this way Roy. Grich would have been able to be replacement level for almost two seasons worth of at bats to be equivalent to the NY media darling. I was not even thinking about comparing them as celebrities. Just as ball players.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Look at it this way Roy. Grich would have been able to be replacement level for almost two seasons worth of at bats to be equivalent to the NY media darling. I was not even thinking about comparing them as celebrities. Just as ball players.

Grich was one of my favorite Orioles. Just a great player. Should be in the Hall of Fame.

[weams]

Grich was one of my favorite Orioles. Just a great player. Should be in the Hall of Fame.

Roy is friends with Bobby. He just doesn't realize how good he was. That hype machine has really made a lot of people believe a story that is not true.

[ledzepp8]

Roy is friends with Bobby. He just doesn't realize how good he was. That hype machine has really made a lot of people believe a story that is not true.

That's my whole issue. Jeter seems like an alright guy, once you get past the gift baskets for the notches on on his bed post. He's a good/great player who deserves to be in the HOF. But the way he's been turned into some otherworldly, once in a lifetime, can't miss player...is utterly ridiculous. When in this thread we can easily name a handful of players off the top our heads that were comparable and/or better than Jeter that aren't even in the HOF. It's not his fault...I just get tired of it. The Yankees have enough history and HOF players. Their fans and the media didn't need to dream up some universe where Jeter was on par with Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Joe Dimaggio, etc, which is the way they act.

[NJ BIRD FAN]

Nothing has advanced the quest for human knowledge more than those who look at scientific endeavor and those engaged in the objective search for truth and exclaim "Hogwash, you nerds." If I want to know how the universe works I don't go for no high falutin' book learnin', I go talk to whoever is sittin' on the nail keg down at the general store and strike me up a conversation.

The bottom of bird cages are littered with what used to be scientific certainties. Hang onto your delusion.

[weams]

The bottom of bird cages are littered with what used to be scientific certainties. Hang onto your delusion.

Actually, not. Maybe news of certainties. But not scientific fact. Knowledge is power.

[russ snyder]

That's my whole issue. Jeter seems like an alright guy, once you get past the gift baskets for the notches on on his bed post. He's a good/great player who deserves to be in the HOF. But the way he's been turned into some otherworldly, once in a lifetime, can't miss player...is utterly ridiculous. When in this thread we can easily name a handful of players off the top our heads that were comparable and/or better than Jeter that aren't even in the HOF. It's not his fault...I just get tired of it. The Yankees have enough history and HOF players. Their fans and the media didn't need to dream up some universe where Jeter was on par with Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Joe Dimaggio, etc, which is the way they act.

I think that this post pretty much nails it for me.

Jeter obviously has HOF credentials. However, Jeter has benefitted greatly by being the captain of the Yankees the last two decades.

The Yankees have had a very successful run during this time and the media ( particularly Yankee biased ESPN has added greatly to the lore.

Personally, the Nike campaign that spells respect with the number 2 is beyond sickening. I found the commercial that they played during the All

Star game with everyone tipping their cap to him to be unbearable.

I don't feel that any player deserves this kind of reverence.

[srock]

I had typed up a lengthy response comparing Ghandi, Lincoln, and Chuck Norris unfavorably to the great Jeter, but I thought better of it.

Jeter is currently tied for 57th in career rWAR with Harry Heilmann, the great Tigers outfielder of the 1920s. Half a win ahead of Raffy, about even with Frank Thomas, Adrian Beltre, and Jim Thome. Despite a skepticism about recent/active players all of those guys will go into the Hall and have very strong cases.

Among players with 1000+ games at shortstop Jeter is 10th in rWAR. HOF SS's range from 40 rWAR (Rizzuto) to 131 (Wagner), so Jeter is just in the top half.

It's interesting to think what his career might have been like in another city or cities. Arky Vaughn has almost exactly the same career value, and he was really underappreciated in his time, had to wait for the Vet's Committee to put him in many years after he retired. Alan Trammell has almost exactly the same value, but without the fawning media hype and constant play for 20 years on ESPN, and he's going to have to wait a long while to get in to Cooperstown. But Ernie Banks is in the same range and he waltzed into the Hall, so did Larkin and Ozzie and Robin Yount.

In fact, Yount might be Jeter's best comp. Yount had to move off short in mid-career, played a very long time, but of course spent his career in the anti-NY in Milwaukee. That's probably something like what Jeter's career would have been if he'd been drafted by the Mariners or Royals and didn't get that over-the-top, almost cartoonish portrayal in the NY media.

Jeter does have the lowest fielding runs total in history (by almost 50 runs) by bb-ref's figuring. Now, that's not the same as saying he's the worst fielder ever. Combine the positional adjustment with the fielding runs and he's nowhere close, although he's still about -100 runs in (defense + positional value). It does make for an unusual combination of skills. If he, for example, had managed to be an average defender at an average position like 2B/3B/RF his career could have been about 10 wins to the better. In (defense + position) Cal was actually a full Phil Rizzuto career better than Jeter (40+ wins), but Jeter was almost 20 wins better with the bat.

Post of the year right here. Glad it made the front page.

Also, hard to find because the front page articles do not link directly to the post.

[TonySoprano]

The moment came mid-game, off the field. It came when National League starter Adam Wainwright, talking to reporters after giving up three first-inning runs, admitted the pitch he threw that Jeter hit for a double to lead off the game … he grooved it. "I was gonna give him a couple pipe shots," Wainwright said. "He deserved it. I didn't know he was gonna hit a double or I might have changed my mind."

The timing on this was unfortunate, though Wainwright, standing outside the National League clubhouse, couldn't have possibly known that. Just a few minutes earlier, Jeter had his big sendoff, ending his 2-for-2 night, and writers were typing their "Jeter's Perfect Farewell" leads and Harold Reynolds was feting Jeter the way only Harold Reynolds can and everyone was ready to hand him his MVP trophy and tattoo THE CAPTAIN on their faces. It was Jeter's night, that was the story, that was how this night would be remembered, and that was that.

And then Wainwright said what he said. It was as plain as day. He didn't hedge. He wasn't vague. He told the exact truth. He grooved a pitch to Derek Jeter because he respects Jeter so much he felt he deserved it. And then he owned up to it. He was asked the question. And he answered it. Now, as anyone who covers the St. Louis Cardinals will tell you, this is par for the course with Wainwright. He is well-liked among reporters in St. Louis for his frankness and approachability. He's a likable guy. My dad would call him "a straight shooter."

But that's not why Wainwright was criticized, or why he was forced to apologize to Erin Andrews during the game and act like he was kidding. The reaction among media -- who are paid to ask questions of players and managers that elicit honest reactions, and if the reactions aren't honest, they're paid to find out what the truth in fact is -- wasn't to thank Wainwright for his honesty. It was to blast him for not lying. "[A] very odd decision for Wainwright to talk openly about doing what he claims he did," said CBS Sports. Wainwright was "kind of a putz," said SB Nation. Jared Diamond of The Wall Street Journal was particularly incensed.

And why did people want Wainwright to lie? Because now Jeter's night -- Jeter's perfect night -- was somehow sullied. Everybody had their stories written in the first inning. This was Jeter's last great moment, and of course he went 2-for-2 because he was special. Wainwright telling the truth meant that the Jeter's Great Night story had to have an asterisk. And Derek Jeter is never, ever supposed to have an asterisk.

The problem with the way we've always treated Derek Jeter is that we've repeatedly let -- demanded -- the story get ahead of the man, a man, I might add, we know absolutely nothing about. It's never been enough that Derek Jeter had more than 3,000 hits and is one of the 10 best shortstops of all time. He has to stand for so much more than that. True Yankee. Face of Baseball. A Throwback. Mr. November. Class. Professionalism. The Captain. The obsession to turn Jeter into a myth has been present from the very beginning of Jeter's career. It has never stopped.

source -Will Leitch