What Might Have Been

[George Zuverink]

I don't really know... what was Palmer's problem? '67? '68?

e: Cuz he was like God for the next 10-12 years!

He had an elbow operation in either '67 or'68. Kobe didn't operate on Tommy John until 1974. Goes to show how luck and some quirk in the DNA let some guys survive and struck some guys down.

He might have become like God, but according to his Wikipedia biography, the O's, Royals, and Seattle Pilots treated him in a decidedly agnostic fashion in 1968:

He had been placed on waivers in September 1968 and was left unprotected for the Kansas City Royals and Seattle Pilots in the expansion draft one month later, but was neither claimed nor selected due to the extent of the injuries.

That was Harry Dalton. And some people have said that "better lucky than good" about Duquette!

[scOtt]

He had an elbow operation in either '67 or'68. Kobe didn't operate on Tommy John until 1974. Goes to show how luck and some quirk in the DNA let some guys survive and struck some guys down.

He might have become like God, but according to his Wikipedia biography, the O's, Royals, and Seattle Pilots treated him in a decidedly agnostic fashion in 1968:

He had been placed on waivers in September 1968 and was left unprotected for the Kansas City Royals and Seattle Pilots in the expansion draft one month later, but was neither claimed nor selected due to the extent of the injuries.

That was Harry Dalton. And some people have said that "better lucky than good" about Duquette!

Holy crap! I never heard that before! Palmer unprotected in an expansion draft. Injuries helped him and us both?

Dalton was a gambler!

[csgordos]

Each of their careers ended early with elbow problems. At least some of those careers could have been saved by surgery that some high school kids have as a preventive measure. Palmer got past his elbow problems and made the HOF. How many more could there have been?

I wonder how many of our frequent posters have heard of any of these guys.You other old-timers, whom am I missing?

Just for a side note: NOBODY should ever have preventative UCL surgery, especially a healthy kid. It is a MYTH that you throw harder after surgery!!!!!!!! This False thinking is like the European soccer players having "preventative" meniscal surgeries in the 70s. Awful, awful idea!!!!!:angryfire::cussing:

I am posting this because there is this thought out in the public. James Andrew's helped to write an article against this practice.

[LA2]

Wayne Garland: 20-7 for the O's in 1976, then signed a 10-year contract with the Indians. Never had a good season again and the Indians finally gave up on him with 5 years still left on the contract. Probably blew his arm out pitching 282+ innings in his first year with Cleveland.

[George Zuverink]

Wayne Garland: 20-7 for the O's in 1976, then signed a 10-year contract with the Indians. Never had a good season again and the Indians finally gave up on him with 5 years still left on the contract. Probably blew his arm out pitching 282+ innings in his first year with Cleveland.

Great addition to the list! In the end, it was a torn rotator cuff that did him in. I've read that the success rate of repairs is much lower than with Tommy John. With the number of innings he pitched, chances are surgery wouldn't have saved his career. Parenthetically, Frank was his manager in Cleveland.

Second parenthesis - His was one of the first big contracts after free agency, a massive $2.3 Million for ten years. He had played the previous year without a contract. It was the same year we lost Reggie and Grich. From an interview in the LA Times:

Garland says he and Kapstein discussed the possibility of a five-year deal worth a million. Then came Cleveland's offer. He called his mom and broke the news to her, just as Kapstein had broken it to him.

"I said, 'I didn't get my million.' She said, 'Money's not everything.' I said, 'I got two million.' She said, 'You're not worth it.'

[George Zuverink]

Just for a side note: NOBODY should ever have preventative UCL surgery, especially a healthy kid. It is a MYTH that you throw harder after surgery!!!!!!!! This False thinking is like the European soccer players having "preventative" meniscal surgeries in the 70s. Awful, awful idea!!!!!:angryfire::cussing:

I am posting this because there is this thought out in the public. James Andrew's helped to write an article against this practice.

I couldn't agree more. I threw in that aside only to illustrate how commonplace the procedure has become. I was hoping the stories of prophylactic Tommy John surgery were apocryphal, but based on your reaction, it sounds like they're not.

Is their a medical code of ethics that should prevent doctors from performing the procedure on healthy teenagers? I know that health insurers should deny payment on medical necessity grounds. That suggests that there is a well-to do, Type A Dad involved, someone with the funds to pay out of pocket who istrying to live through his son.

[csgordos]

I couldn't agree more. I threw in that aside only to illustrate how commonplace the procedure has become. I was hoping the stories of prophylactic Tommy John surgery were apocryphal, but based on your reaction, it sounds like they're not.

Is their a medical code of ethics that should prevent doctors from performing the procedure on healthy teenagers? I know that health insurers should deny payment on medical necessity grounds. That suggests that there is a well-to do, Type A Dad involved, someone with the funds to pay out of pocket who istrying to live through his son.

It is not a "common" surgery at this point. But even a few are too many. To question #1, yes. But, ethics are often not enforced in today's society whether it is in the medical community, business community, lawyer community, etc. It often comes down to the almighty dollar. Most surgeons would never do the surgery, but... Statement #2 & #3 are both true. It would not be covered by the insurance company, unless unethically it is coded as a tear or elbow pain. You can always pay cash for any procedure. Think plastic surgery. I do not think it is a common practice, but my fear is that young players and their handlers (dads, uncles, agents, coaches, etc.) will "fake" an elbow injury in order to have a procedure to get the surgery out of the way, or in the false hope to gain more mph on their pitches. I believe this is the more likely scenario in preventative UCL repair. The patient lies to the surgeon to have the surgery. And MRIs can be inconclusive. All pitchers who throw a lot have wear and tear on their shoulders and most will have some on the elbow. It may not be an issue, but doesn't mean it isn't present when you go into the body looking for it.

[DrungoHazewood]

Wayne Garland: 20-7 for the O's in 1976, then signed a 10-year contract with the Indians. Never had a good season again and the Indians finally gave up on him with 5 years still left on the contract. Probably blew his arm out pitching 282+ innings in his first year with Cleveland.

I think what did him in was going rather abruptly from long reliever to 183 inning/14 complete game starter in mid-June 1976. His first 14 MLB complete games came between 26 June and 28 September 1976.

[LA2]

I think what did him in was going rather abruptly from long reliever to 183 inning/14 complete game starter in mid-June 1976. His first 14 MLB complete games came between 26 June and 28 September 1976.

Yes, now I remember that. If it's true, then 282 innings the next season sealed his fate!

[LA2]

Great addition to the list! In the end, it was a torn rotator cuff that did him in. I've read that the success rate of repairs is much lower than with Tommy John. With the number of innings he pitched, chances are surgery wouldn't have saved his career. Parenthetically, Frank was his manager in Cleveland.

Second parenthesis - His was one of the first big contracts after free agency, a massive $2.3 Million for ten years. He had played the previous year without a contract. It was the same year we lost Reggie and Grich. From an interview in the LA Times:

Garland says he and Kapstein discussed the possibility of a five-year deal worth a million. Then came Cleveland's offer. He called his mom and broke the news to her, just as Kapstein had broken it to him.

"I said, 'I didn't get my million.' She said, 'Money's not everything.' I said, 'I got two million.' She said, 'You're not worth it.'

Great anecdote! Sounds like my Mom. Did Frank in general have a tendency to wear down his top starting pitchers (not only with the Indians)?

[csgordos]

Great addition to the list! In the end, it was a torn rotator cuff that did him in. I've read that the success rate of repairs is much lower than with Tommy John. With the number of innings he pitched, chances are surgery wouldn't have saved his career. [/i]

This is still true. The recent article I read stated that 25% of all Tommy John surgeries never return to the level they were prior to surgery. That would typically mean pitching professionally. The statistics for repairs of the rotator cuff are much worse, but I do not know them off the top of my head.

[Redskins Rick]

This is still true. The recent article I read stated that 25% of all Tommy John surgeries never return to the level they were prior to surgery. That would typically mean pitching professionally. The statistics for repairs of the rotator cuff are much worse, but I do not know them off the top of my head.

I found this and not very good:

The study by Dr. James Andrews that they mentioned was done in 2005 and the results may be very frightening to Mets fans. Dr. Andrews evaluated 16 professional baseball players (12 pitchers, 4 position players) before and after their rotator cuff surgery. After a period of 66.6 months, only one pitcher was able to return to a high competitive level and have no issues with the injury again [2].

http://mets360.com/?p=8853

[csgordos]

I found this and not very good:

The study by Dr. James Andrews that they mentioned was done in 2005 and the results may be very frightening to Mets fans. Dr. Andrews evaluated 16 professional baseball players (12 pitchers, 4 position players) before and after their rotator cuff surgery. After a period of 66.6 months, only one pitcher was able to return to a high competitive level and have no issues with the injury again [2].

http://mets360.com/?p=8853

It is a little better now than 2005 because you are talking about procedures done about 15 years ago. But it is not much better. Thank you for taking the time to look up the article.

[OFFNY]

The confluence of recent threads about the durability (or lack thereof) of various pitchers of interest, the almost foregone conclusion that Dylan will come back better than ever; the enthusiasm for taking flyers on J.Santana and Niemann; the hope that Hobgood may not be a total wasted first round pick; the request for favorite Orioles memories got me thinking; and Josh Hart's homework assignment.

How much different might the pantheon of great, hard-throwing Orioles pitchers have been if orthopedic surgery had been advanced as it is today? I submit for your consideration:

Wally Bunker - Nine months older than Palmer. Won his first six starts and went 19-5 at age 19 in 1964 and shut out the Dodgers pitching with a sore arm, two days after a Palmer did in the 1966 WS

Jerry Walker - the youngest pitcher ever to start an All-Star game when he started the game at age 20 for the American League in 1959

Chuck Estrada - 15-9 as a 22 year old rookie in 1960, leading the league in fewest hits per nine innings

Steve Barber - 18-12 with eight shutouts as a 22 year old rookie in 1960, 20- 13 the next year. Removed with one out to go in the ninth of a no hitter in 1967. Stu Miller got the out

Steve Dalkowski - the original Nuke Laloosh

Each of their careers ended early with elbow problems. At least some of those careers could have been saved by surgery that some high school kids have as a preventive measure. Palmer got past his elbow problems and made the HOF. How many more could there have been?

I wonder how many of our frequent posters have heard of any of these guys.You other old-timers, whom am I missing?

Steve Barber was born on this day, 76 years ago.

[SteveA]

What a coincidence. When I read the links you sent me about Sammy "the Throwin' Swannanoan" Stewart, I was sitting on a folding chair at a soccer field in Swannanoa watching my granddaughter train. From the description in the article, it sounds like he and I now live within 10 miles of each other. So do I drive up there, knock on the door, and ask him out for a beer?

Given his issues with addiction, maybe you should ask him out for a lemonade.