MASN: A Primer on Pitch Framing

[Can_of_corn]

No, not all teams have the same information or methodology. Also, not all front offices value the numbers similarly.

They are using these things, so I imagine the market is adapting to this skill.

It took time for people to come around to OBP.

I said at the very least. There I bolded it for you.

Not sure why you are bringing up OBP, the spread of information is light years ahead of where it was then.

[Can_of_corn]

Corn,

I don't mean to derail the conversation, but you seem to have some interest in this topic and concern about it. Have you tried engaging in the guys who do this work in the public sphere?

If I was them I wouldn't want to hear from me.

I am sure it will all be worked out to my satisfaction within the next few years.

Now if I could get someone in the loop to listen to my ideas on pitching...

[CA-ORIOLE]

I know what I said, it was rhetoric. Of course I don't actually think the background noise completely invalidates the data. I was exaggerating for effect.

Well, I called it rhetoric. So what's the issue here?

[Kalkan]

I said at the very least. There I bolded it for you.

Not sure why you are bringing up OBP, the spread of information is light years ahead of where it was then.

Information does spread quickly, but there are types of information that does not. Progress does not move at the same speed across the industry. I mean, look at Ruben Amaro. Look at the Rockies. More than a few GMs look suspiciously at these things.

[Can_of_corn]

Well, I called it rhetoric. So what's the issue here?

I thought you were questioning why I changed my earlier position?

I was explaining that I hadn't.

I was just having a bit of fun with the back and forth.

[Can_of_corn]

Information does spread quickly, but there are types of information that does not. Progress does not move at the same speed across the industry. I mean, look at Ruben Amaro. Look at the Rockies. More than a few GMs look suspiciously at these things.

But it would only take two teams to buy in to cause a bidding war when one of these plus framers was available.

I don't know of any catchers who you could say are being effected monetarily in a major way by this information.

[El Gordo]

Yet another article about how a run value is assigned to a framed pitch. I'll leave that to the accountants who find that stuff exciting. Does anybody know how they determine whether a pitch is framed in the first place?. Is it a matter of some guy watching the game and determining that this pitch was a strike because the catcher framed it, that pitch was a strike because the ump blew the call, and the next pitch was a strike because Maddux always gets the call six inches off the plate? Or does the catcher get credit for framing all of the above? If so sounds like a lot of subjectivity to me. Garbage in garbage out.

[Kalkan]

But it would only take two teams to buy in to cause a bidding war when one of these plus framers was available.

I don't know of any catchers who you could say are being effected monetarily in a major way by this information.

In a major way...no, I think you are right about that. But, teams are using this to target certain catchers. The Indians are beginning to use to target college catchers.

That all said, you likely need more than a couple teams. The stat feels a little soft and teams can shuffle around and find good deals. Again, it took years for OBP to be valued and then over valued.

[Can_of_corn]

Yet another article about how a run value is assigned to a framed pitch. I'll leave that to the accountants who find that stuff exciting. Does anybody know how they determine whether a pitch is framed in the first place?. Is it a matter of some guy watching the game and determining that this pitch was a strike because the catcher framed it, that pitch was a strike because the ump blew the call, and the next pitch was a strike because Maddux always gets the call six inches off the plate? Or does the catcher get credit for framing all of the above? If so sounds like a lot of subjectivity to me. Garbage in garbage out.

The argument being made here is all of that stuff evens out over the course of a season.

[Kalkan]

Yet another article about how a run value is assigned to a framed pitch. I'll leave that to the accountants who find that stuff exciting. Does anybody know how they determine whether a pitch is framed in the first place?. Is it a matter of some guy watching the game and determining that this pitch was a strike because the catcher framed it, that pitch was a strike because the ump blew the call, and the next pitch was a strike because Maddux always gets the call six inches off the plate? Or does the catcher get credit for framing all of the above? If so sounds like a lot of subjectivity to me. Garbage in garbage out.

I guess we could just sit here and complain.

[Can_of_corn]

In a major way...no, I think you are right about that. But, teams are using this to target certain catchers. The Indians are beginning to use to target college catchers.

That all said, you likely need more than a couple teams. The stat feels a little soft and teams can shuffle around and find good deals. Again, it took years for OBP to be valued and then over valued.

I am just convinced that, with stat guys everywhere (even philly) that things move quicker then that now.

I just want to say again, I do think it is a skill, I do think it is valuable.

I just don't trust the metric where it is at currently in it's development.

[Kalkan]

I am just convinced that, with stat guys everywhere (even philly) that things move quicker then that now.

I ran into Keith Law at a park a few years back. He told me how he would come to conclusions and then have to figure out how to "prove" it in a more simple statistical (and often wrong) way to get his stat friendly GM, JP Ricciardi, to listen to him. He said that he and other guys like him were often just mantle pieces.

I imagine information moves quickly and a lot more people are open to it, but it still has trouble when it is not completely tangible.

[El Gordo]

I guess we could just sit here and complain.

Can you answer the question? How does the system determine the difference between a framed strike, an umpire blown call, and a pitcher biased strike? If you can't, and I don't think you can, then it's silly to give any credence to a system, when you don't understand how the data is collected in the first place.

[Kalkan]

Can you answer the question? How does the system determine the difference between a framed strike, an umpire blown call, and a pitcher biased strike? If you can't, and I don't think you can, then it's silly to give any credence to a system, when you don't understand how the data is collected in the first place.

I don't use these systems, so I am the wrong person to ask. That said, you have a database of these events and you can implement a Tom Tango style With or Without You approach to isolate variables to explain variability. You can do that with batter, pitcher, pitch type, count, ump, and maybe other things. I have seen individual studies on each of these aspects. I imagine you can put it all together.

Again, repeatability between years is the big sniff test.

[El Gordo]

I don't use these systems, so I am the wrong person to ask. That said, you have a database of these events and you can implement a Tom Tango style With or Without You approach to isolate variables to explain variability. You can do that with batter, pitcher, pitch type, count, ump, and maybe other things. I have seen individual studies on each of these aspects. I imagine you can put it all together.

Again, repeatability between years is the big sniff test.

You weren't the wrong person to get snarky. Were is this data base of events coming from. With DRS e.g, I know exactly how the data base is determined. With pitch framing I don't. Before getting hung up on what it is worth, how about deciding what it is. It seems pretty stupid to me to spend millions on the probability of someone framing more pitches than another. How do you determine the likely hood of a framed pitch when you can't determine what it is to begin with? It's baseball not particle physics.