Four reason why Schoop didn't lose the game!

[BradyBunch]

I think the play there is actually for Flaherty to slowly circle to the bag behind the play and for Schoop to cover third. At least, that's how I've seen that late inning scenario drawn up at the advanced collegiate level. There isn't a spot for a cut because it's such a shallow throw from the outfield and there really isn't adequate time for or utility in the shortstop and third baseman swapping spots. Throw comes into home with catcher charging out to field well in front of home if there is no play and another runner tries to advance. Throw generally comes into home.

And we agree here. My sticking point with Flaherty is he made no movement to show he was circling around. He just popped a knee in the base path.

[BradyBunch]

What your describing is exactly why you don't have a third baseman unnecessarily run into the shallow infield for a cut, and the shortstop run all the way over to third. Schoop assignment there is to stand on the bag, or at least that's what it should be at this level of ball.

Yep, Playing LF at the collegiate level many a times myself a 3rd baseman doesn't cut off a ball, he stands at 3rd. Which is why I made the topic. Schoop was unfairly called on this.

Lough screwed up.

[BradyBunch]

It's baseball 101 to hit the cut off man. Loughs' cut off man in this situation was not properly aligned. He was late getting into position. It's also Baseall 101 for an outfielder to throw to a properly aligned cut off man. Had Schoop been in position, Lough may have made a throw that Schoop or Weiters would have been able to handle. You don't air mail a throw to the plate without a cut off man in that situation. Unfortunately, the worst thing occured with the winning run scoring on a line out.

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You don't cut a ball off there. NEVER EVER. You either throw it to SS or Home or run it in. If you throw to 3rd you are wrong.

[atomic]

I don't know why we need 7 pages to discuss this.

1) Lough made a horrible throw

2) Schoop should have caught the ball instead of letting the run score.

Those are the facts.. Both players at fault. If Manny was out there I am sure he caught the ball. But still Lough shouldn't have made such a terrrible throw.

[mark_beckens]

I don't know why we need 7 pages to discuss this.

We could make a thread about why it's taken 7 pages. You'd know all about reason #1, overreactionary threads.

[Dipper9]

Yep, Playing LF at the collegiate level many a times myself a 3rd baseman doesn't cut off a ball, he stands at 3rd. Which is why I made the topic. Schoop was unfairly called on this.

Lough screwed up.

Not sure what your agenda is in defending Schoop, but as someone else pointed out above, even if 99 things went wrong that were not Schoop's doing, he STILL Had the chance to just CATCH the friggin ball that was thrown at his head, and the run would not have scored. Period. So yes, he shares in the blame!

[srock]

Not sure what your agenda is in defending Schoop, but as someone else pointed out above, even if 99 things went wrong that were not Schoop's doing, he STILL Had the chance to just CATCH the friggin ball that was thrown at his head, and the run would not have scored. Period. So yes, he shares in the blame!

It would have been a heads up play for Schoop to catch it but since he was out if position, he didn't know the throw was offline. So he does not catch it on the assumption Wieters wants the ball to go home.

Schoop's mistake is being out of position which didn't allow him the chance to make a play.

End of the day Lough needs to make a good throw home.

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[Dipper9]

It would have been a heads up play for Schoop to catch it but since he was out if position, he didn't know the throw was offline. So he does not catch it on the assumption Wieters wants the ball to go home.

Schoop's mistake is being out of position which didn't allow him the chance to make a play.

End of the day Lough needs to make a good throw home.

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If I stand in the middle of the street and wait for a car to come hit me, its my own fault that I get run over.

But the driver still has a chance to avoid the disaster by swerving to miss me.

Same theory applies to Schoop. All he had to do was catch the "terrrible, awful, pathetic, worst throw an outfielder has ever thrown in the majors" and he would have avoided the disaster!

[BradyBunch]

Not sure what your agenda is in defending Schoop, but as someone else pointed out above, even if 99 things went wrong that were not Schoop's doing, he STILL Had the chance to just CATCH the friggin ball that was thrown at his head, and the run would not have scored. Period. So yes, he shares in the blame!

No, everybody blaming Schoop is judging after the fact. You know the whole monday quarterbacking routine that is done here so often. Schoop's only mistake was not staying on 3rd. That play 100% of the time is 1 of 3 things.. Throw home, OF runs the ball in, or SS gets the throw back in and the ball is given to the pitcher. Just cause you and others are wrong and justify a horrible throw which is ROUTINE by an outfielder, specially one less then 150ft from home.. shows the lack of playing knowledge some here have.

[CA-ORIOLE]

If I stand in the middle of the street and wait for a car to come hit me, its my own fault that I get run over.

But the driver still has a chance to avoid the disaster by swerving to miss me.

Same theory applies to Schoop. All he had to do was catch the "terrrible, awful, pathetic, worst throw an outfielder has ever thrown in the majors" and he would have avoided the disaster!

All he had to do??

-He stated he saw Pedroia tag and probably thought the was running. His back was turned to the runner.

-He's trained not to cutoff a throw when the winning run is on the line.

-Lough (who had the play right in front of him) and who was on top of him uncorked a freakin bullet. He could have walked the ball in.

- He's a rookie playing a position he's practically never played.

I'm not absolving Schoop from blame, but that was a horrible play by Lough imo.

[rjslomo]

No, everybody blaming Schoop is judging after the fact. You know the whole monday quarterbacking routine that is done here so often. Schoop's only mistake was not staying on 3rd. That play 100% of the time is 1 of 3 things.. Throw home, OF runs the ball in, or SS gets the throw back in and the ball is given to the pitcher. Just cause you and others are wrong and justify a horrible throw which is ROUTINE by an outfielder, specially one less then 150ft from home.. shows the lack of playing knowledge some here have.

Dude, get over yourself. You sound like some sort of baseball strategy Nazi yelling at everyone else that they are wrong & you are right. I played college ball, too, and we would set up that play with the 3b lining up between the LF and the C and the pitcher getting behind the C in that same line so the four players are in one line. That way, when Lough catches the ball & out 2 is recorded, the teams main concern is that guy on third stays there. Schoop can catch the ball & make sure Pedroia stays at third. It lessens the chance of a short-hop throw bouncing off the C and letting the runner score if the ball goes bounding wherever. I agree that an option is Lough can sprint in with the ball, too, but getting that 4 man straight line in place is a perfectly sound strategy.

[mark_beckens]

Not sure what your agenda is in defending Schoop, but as someone else pointed out above, even if 99 things went wrong that were not Schoop's doing, he STILL Had the chance to just CATCH the friggin ball that was thrown at his head, and the run would not have scored. Period. So yes, he shares in the blame!

I first want to apologize to Wieters before hand for getting him into this. As the cut off man you are listening to the catcher to tell you what to do. Cut it off, relay it to another base, or silence for let it go. It's sometimes hard to hear so maybe Schoop didn't hear Wieters call cut. Could be Wieters didn't call cut. With the throw being so far off line, Schoop should have probably cut it off no matter what. But I'm sure that throw got on him quickly and he only had seconds to decide what to do.

[mark_beckens]

Dude, get over yourself. You sound like some sort of baseball strategy Nazi yelling at everyone else that they are wrong & you are right. I played college ball, too, and we would set up that play with the 3b lining up between the LF and the C and the pitcher getting behind the C in that same line so the four players are in one line. That way, when Lough catches the ball & out 2 is recorded, the teams main concern is that guy on third stays there. Schoop can catch the ball & make sure Pedroia stays at third. It lessens the chance of a short-hop throw bouncing off the C and letting the runner score if the ball goes bounding wherever. I agree that an option is Lough can sprint in with the ball, too, but getting that 4 man straight line in place is a perfectly sound strategy.

I don't hear anyone yelling, but I am partially deaf.

[Il BuonO]

Having watched the replay a few times now both in real time and in slow motion here is my take:

Starting from when Lough catches the ball Flaherty is practically on the baseline between second and third and doesn't really have time to get over to cover third unless the play goes so long as to induce a run down. In that case I believe he would have made it over there just fine. To be clear, the ensuing outcome of the play had nothing to do with Flaherty.

Once the ball is caught by Lough, Schoop looks kind of lost. He initially goes to cover third, but when Lough is winding up for the throw he scrambles off the base into a makeshift cut-off position. This is where everything gets tricky because we don't know what the players were thinking as everything was playing out.

Here is what I think happened:

Schoop left the bag late realizing he needed to be the cut-off guy no matter what. That is his job in that situation, regardless of how shallow Lough was on the throw. Doubling the runner up at third is not the priority, it's making sure he does not score. However, I also think Stotle's argument is a fair one -- this is the highest level of baseball there is. That throw gets made on the fly 90% of the time and 99% of the time Lough will make a more accurate throw.

The throw comes in and it literally whizzes right by Schoop's head/glove.

There is not one time I can remember playing that I was ever told you don't pick up the cutoff man depending on your depth and believe me it came up. Schoop's only job is to line himself up once the ball is hit. Nothing else. He never did it properly. At about the 3 second mark of the video if you watch closely you can see him backing up to the bag as the ball is already by him. He should be moving into the IF grass. In fact, look at the end of the play. Ironically, Schoop catches the ball about at the spot where he should have been lined up to begin with.

1B and 3B when taking throws for cutoff positions are always on the IF grass. With the OF so shallow he should have known to move immediately closer to home and align himself with Wieters as to give Lough a target.

The OF is always told to throw through the cutoff man and even though Lough took responsibility for the poor throw it couldn't have been easy trying to pick up his cutoff man who he normally is trying to throw through and then adjust his sights to home plate and Wieters. He didn't look like like he had his feet set on the throw, but I'm inclined to believe he just rushed it. Pedroia had no intention of going with how shallow they were.

However, if Schoop is in the proper position and has more depth closer to home it makes it easier for him to handle that throw.

[mark_beckens]

T

1B and 3B when taking throws for cutoff positions are always on the IF grass.

This is not always true. Depends on how deep the OFer is when he gets the ball.