Orioles Pitching without Wieters

[section18]

If memory is correct Matt never called the pitches at GT while in college. We've discussed this before and many on here say the mental part has been a bit of a struggle for him and most of the pitches seem to be called from the dugout. I think his size affects the umpires judgment behind the plate. He is so big I think the umps have trouble seeing the pitch and making the correct calls. Some seem to set up over his shoulder favoring one side of the plate and pitches on the other corner are missed because the ump is not behind the plate. I think the umps are seeing the pitches better because Clevenger and Joseph are shorter guys. A number of our pitchers like to shake off the pitches called. Have you noticed how often Clevenger and Joseph go out to the mound? They are getting the signal from the dugout and don't want to get ripped for calling the wrong pitch and made to look bad. They don't have the big contract like Wieters has and want to stay with the team. I think they are telling the pitchers to throw the dam ball the way I'm telling you because they want the pitch called thrown to the batter. I think they are doing a better job behind the plate and the numbers for the pitchers will continue to improve with them catching.

[weams]

Eh the Yanks will still pay em

To DH?

[LA2]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/41

Month of May we have the 4th best pitching in MLB.

Three of those games were caught by Matt, including the Ubaldo-anchored shutout of the Twins.

[wildcard]

I think its a interesting trend that we should continue to watch to see where it goes.

One factor that goes against the Wieters theory is that Clevenger caught 5 complete games in April and the staff ERA in those games was 6.19.

There are other factors. Here are a few:

1) New pitching coaches who philosophy may be settle in with the staff.

2) Warmer weather may be helping.

3) Jimenez has a track record of not pitching well in April but doing better in May. 6.59 ERA April, 0.46 ERA in May.

4) Playing teams that are not a familiar with the O's pitchers outside of the AL East in May.

But all the starters seem to be better in May.

[Can_of_corn]

If memory is correct Matt never called the pitches at GT while in college. We've discussed this before and many on here say the mental part has been a bit of a struggle for him and most of the pitches seem to be called from the dugout. I think his size affects the umpires judgment behind the plate. He is so big I think the umps have trouble seeing the pitch and making the correct calls. Some seem to set up over his shoulder favoring one side of the plate and pitches on the other corner are missed because the ump is not behind the plate. I think the umps are seeing the pitches better because Clevenger and Joseph are shorter guys. A number of our pitchers like to shake off the pitches called. Have you noticed how often Clevenger and Joseph go out to the mound? They are getting the signal from the dugout and don't want to get ripped for calling the wrong pitch and made to look bad. They don't have the big contract like Wieters has and want to stay with the team. I think they are telling the pitchers to throw the dam ball the way I'm telling you because they want the pitch called thrown to the batter. I think they are doing a better job behind the plate and the numbers for the pitchers will continue to improve with them catching.

1- Hardly any catchers in HS or College, especially a high profile program like GT call their own pitches.

2- There are no pitches called from the dugout. There are pitch outs called from the dugout.

[Can_of_corn]

So I admit I haven't done the research yet but it sure seems that the O's pitching has improved with the loss of Wieters.

I have felt for the last several years that Wieters inability to set a low target and his all around poor pitch framing have hurt the staff.

At this point whatever the before/after Wieters stats are they are a SSS....

but Joseph especially seems very good at setting a very quiet very low target and is excellent at framing the pitches

Why wouldn't you do the research before starting the thread?

Wouldn't it be better to be able to support your position with facts?

[mdbdotcom]

Until Wieters comes back and the pitching staff regresses, I prefer to credit the guidance of new pitching coach Dave Wallace. After only one month, he's gotten them into shape. Good job.

[Ohfan67]

Regarding small sample sizes, I believe someone posted in one of the many other recent catching threads that the O's ERA was a full run lower last year when Wieters wasn't catching. Wieters has started so many games in the past few years that a large data set doesn't really exist, but the data that does exist definitely doesn't indicate that Wieters influence on the pitching staff is a big benefit.

[Can_of_corn]

Regarding small sample sizes, I believe someone posted in one of the many other recent catching threads that the O's ERA was a full run lower last year when Wieters wasn't catching. Wieters has started so many games in the past few years that a large data set doesn't really exist, but the data that does exist definitely doesn't indicate that Wieters influence on the pitching staff is a big benefit.

Don't most of us accept that as a general fact of baseball? You need pitchers that can execute pitches.

[Ohfan67]

Don't most of us accept that as a general fact of baseball? You need pitchers that can execute pitches.

I think comments in this thread and the many, many other catching threads suggest that some posters think that catchers can have almost mysterious, unquantifiable abilities to influence the performance of pitchers. I certainly don't.

[Can_of_corn]

I think comments in this thread and the many, many other catching threads suggest that some posters think that catchers can have almost mysterious, unquantifiable abilities to influence the performance of pitchers. I certainly don't.

I think that folks use things like that to push agendas.

[weams]

1- Hardly any catchers in HS or College, especially a high profile program like GT call their own pitches.

2- There are no pitches called from the dugout. There are pitch outs called from the dugout.

It has been definitively proven that you are correct, and yet many think that what they see with their eyes is fact. So you will never really convince them. People love to chase conspiracies.

[weams]

I think that folks use things like that to push agendas.

What exactly do you mean by agendas? Seriously. I would love to know what possible motivations might be there.

[DrungoHazewood]

So I admit I haven't done the research yet but it sure seems that the O's pitching has improved with the loss of Wieters.

I have felt for the last several years that Wieters inability to set a low target and his all around poor pitch framing have hurt the staff.

At this point whatever the before/after Wieters stats are they are a SSS....

but Joseph especially seems very good at setting a very quiet very low target and is excellent at framing the pitches

This is called confirmation bias.

[TonySoprano]

You can call it rude and condescending if you like. How many months or years of data do you think would be needed to make a definitive conclusion for the people arguing SSS. How many games do we need Clevenger and Wieters to be each catching the same pitchers over the same period of time? I bet it's at least a hundred games for each if not more. My opinion is that "at the very least" there is no discerning difference between Wieters and Clevenger catching, regarding the performance of the pitchers. As for a statistical analysis, it will probably take a long time to make such a statement. For now, I'm going on common sense and what I see.

Tell me another statistic that you would consider settled after 12 games. Machado has played 16 games. Is the book written on what his production will be at the end of the year?

Had you initially asked a more reasonable question, such as 100 games, it would have generated an interesting discussion. Instead you chose to put a quick decisive end to the debate by tossing out an absurd strawman position intended to make the other opinion look worthless. You're much better than that.

Maybe it will turn out there's no difference with Clevenger. That will be a good thing. But right now there are other factors that need to enter the equation. One example is strength of schedule in May vs. April. Houston in KC are 13th and 15th in team OPS, TB is 11th, just ahead of the O's. Last month we faced Boston (8th), NYY (4th) and TOR (2nd) along with common opponents TB and DET.