Machado: Demotion an Option?

[Jonesy10]

All I can say is that thank God you aren't the GM. You are putting far too much thought into his play right now. His glove will be fine. His bat will come around too.

I'm not basing this on his play right now. I'm basing this on the fact that he has been an absolutely terrible hitter except for the first half in 2013 thanks to luck, and that his fielding is obviously not the same and may never be.

[eddie83]

He was awful in the months leading up to his injury as well. He had an .807 OPS in the first half with 39 2B and a .647 OPS with 12 2B in the 2nd half. This year he has what, 3 doubles? And a .600 OPS.

He's had 1 (ONE!!!!) half of baseball where he was good hitter which was only because his BABIP was .360 (way out of line with his numbers in 2012 and from the 2nd half of 2013-now). Other than that his OPS is well below .700

And never played a day at AAA and hasn't turned 22 yet. So other guys playing well now were all finished products at 21 years old? Actually they were in the minors at his age and got better, but in your mind he is who is at this point?

[Norfolk orioles]

It also doesn't help buck keeps shoving him in the two hole.

He should be hitting 7th until he proves he is capable of doing otherwise.

On a side note, bucks statement of something to the effect of, "you can't break the great ones" is looking more and more dumb by the day.

Manny's swing is pretty garbage right now between the lazy fly balls and the long loopy backswing that keeps hitting catchers in their masks. Poor poor poor.

[MurphDogg]

He's had 1 (ONE!!!!) half of baseball where he was good hitter which was only because his BABIP was .360 (way out of line with his numbers in 2012 and from the 2nd half of 2013-now). Other than that his OPS is well below .700

This is just silly. He has only played three half seasons of MLB baseball. (THREE!!!!) And he was great in one of them. And he is not quite 22. While I can appreciate that two is more than one, let's build more of a sample before determining which is the real Manny.

[Jonesy10]

And never played a day at AAA and hasn't turned 22 yet. So other guys playing well now were all finished products at 21 years old? Actually they were in the minors at his age and got better, but in your mind he is who is at this point?

He could get better. He should. Probably a .700 OPS guy. But as I said earlier, the fact that he doesn't walk and doesn't hit HR's isn't helping him, neither is the fact that he actually hasn't hit very many doubles at all besides the first half of 2013. I just don't see how you can say he has elite talent. Defensively? Yes. The problem is if that knee is going to affect him long term in the field he's a mediocre player. Offensively, I see no elite talent, not much talent at all really.

[Jonesy10]

This is just silly. He has only played three half seasons of MLB baseball. (THREE!!!!) And he was great in one of them. And he is not quite 22. While I can appreciate that two is more than one, let's build more of a sample before determining which is the real Manny.

I don't completely disagree with you but every day that Manny continues to struggle makes it look more and more that it was an abberation and completely BABIP driven (has never had a BABIP of over .300 at any level where he played more than 7 games besides the first half of last season). In the meantime, bat Pearce 2nd. Manny hasn't earned the 2 hole yet and doesn't deserve. Your worst hitter doesn't usually bat second...

[MurphDogg]

He could get better. He should. Probably a .700 OPS guy.

Someone with a career .727 OPS that could and should get better isn't probably a .700 OPS guy.

[SteveO]

I think when we see him out on the field we forge this is a kid who just had a major knee surgery and what that implies. He is certainly healthy enough to play but that does not mean he 100%. Physiologically it would nearly impossible for him to have the same strength, range of motion, flexibility and level of muscle fatigue that he had prior to he surgery this early on. He is a 21 y.o kid just starting out, not Adrian Peterson in his prime. It should be expected that he might have some struggles. My guess is by next season Manny will be right as rain. He will work through it.

[Jonesy10]

Someone with a career .727 OPS that could and should get better isn't probably a .700 OPS guy.

Well he's been a low/mid .600 OPS guy for almost half of his career. Below .700 if you take out the first half of 2013. I'd consider the 2013 first half the fluke, not the rest of his career.

[MurphDogg]

Well he's been a low/mid .600 OPS guy for almost half of his career. Below .700 if you take out the first half of 2013. I'd consider the 2013 first half the fluke, not the rest of his career.

I just don't see how you can speak with such certainly and erase a third of the information. It isn't a reasonable use of data measurement.

[Aristotelian]

I just don't see how you can speak with such certainly and erase a third of the information. It isn't a reasonable use of data measurement.

Look at his minor league numbers too then. Face it, he just isn't a great hitter.

[El Gordo]

Manny has only had 154 PA, but if he were qualified he would rank 8th among all MLB 3B in UZR. He's not yet what he was last year, but he is still good with the glove.

[SteveO]

He could get better. He should. Probably a .700 OPS guy. But as I said earlier, the fact that he doesn't walk and doesn't hit HR's isn't helping him, neither is the fact that he actually hasn't hit very many doubles at all besides the first half of 2013. I just don't see how you can say he has elite talent. Defensively? Yes. The problem is if that knee is going to affect him long term in the field he's a mediocre player. Offensively, I see no elite talent, not much talent at all really.

21 y.o, major knee surgery, not Adrian Peterson....what did you all expect...Supper Manny back at 100% or better with no ill effects....yea that's realistic. Every scout in baseball drooling over him was wrong and we know he will be a .700 ops guy cause he has some struggles in his first few seasons....seriously..

So when you say you see "Offensively, I see no elite talent, not much talent at all really" either your smarter than DD, Buck, and 99.9% of the scouts in baseball or your full of ....well ya know. Think ya can guess which one I am betting on.

[MurphDogg]

Look at his minor league numbers too then. Face it, he just isn't a great hitter.

Scouts were pretty universal that he had a bat good enough to play at third. The consensus was that he would be a perennial All-Star if he could stay at shortstop at the big league level but that he would be an above average hitter as a third baseman. Nothing about his Major League career has made me think that was inaccurate.

I don't think he will be a great hitter, but if he is an above average hitter and a great defensive player he is still a 4-5 WAR player season in and season out. That is a great player and occasional All Star. And if he moved to shortstop he could still be a perennial All Star.

[LA2]

He could get better. He should. Probably a .700 OPS guy. But as I said earlier, the fact that he doesn't walk and doesn't hit HR's isn't helping him, neither is the fact that he actually hasn't hit very many doubles at all besides the first half of 2013. I just don't see how you can say he has elite talent. Defensively? Yes. The problem is if that knee is going to affect him long term in the field he's a mediocre player. Offensively, I see no elite talent, not much talent at all really.

First of all, the first half/second half stats that so many Manny-doubters cite are fundamentally false. They should actually be labeled pre- and post-All Star Break. In Manny's case, they comprise 413 and 254 at-bats respectively. So the stellar .310 BA/.807 OPS he turned in pre-ASB (what you and Baseball Reference misleadingly call the first "half" of 2013) should indeed be given a lot more weight. In fact, those 413 ABs were 62% of 2013 and a little more than half (50.9%) of his total 2013-2014 ABs. It's also clear that Manny was playing tired in the final month or so of 2013, which is understandable since he had never played nearly that many games before in one season in his life; regardless, his glovework did not suffer then and that's what a tremendous amount of his value is based on.

Secondly, why is no one mentioning his key 2012 performance, you know, the year we got into the playoffs? Has everyone already forgotten the widely-acknowledged indispensable role he played then? That's another 191 ABs on the plus side, i.e. a total of 604 (2012, pre-ASB 2013) vs. 398 (post-ASB 2013 + 2014) or 60.2% of his major league time. Sounds far from flukey to me.

Because of his record, widely-agreed upon abiilities, the injury, and now the added psychological burden of making up for his blow-ups against Oakland, I'm very willing to give Manny more time this season to return to form, although I also don't disagree with suggestions that, until he does, he should be moved further down in the lineup.