MacPhail: Angelos didn't veto Bedard deal - per AM

[Tony-OH]

That's not what you said. You said that MacPhail keeping Angelos constantly in the loop was a sign of not having full control.

Remember, this is still a business. I have no doubt that if (to keep the analogy going) you had bought this without knowing the business like you said, you would still want to know what is going on in major decisions.

And, we don't know how much he is involved now. The signing thing is just a rumor from one source. Weren't we just told the other night that he stopped the deal because of Jones having a hip condition, people went ballistic, and then we found out it was false?

Something also to consider (that I see all the time from the board in general, not just you Tony) is that there seems to be the assumption that Angelos doesn't know what he is doing.

He has been the owner of the Orioles for fourteen full years. He is not an idiot; you don't build a law firm and the reputation he has outside of baseball by being an idiot. I'm sure he had at least a casual fans' knowledge of baseball coming in, and from the time he has spent since he knows the business and negotiation side really well. And, as so many bad GMs in the past have proven, knowing the sport doesn't mean you will make good decisions

I'm sure some moron will take this as a "defense" of Angelos, because I dare to claim he isn't the devil, but we need to realize who we are discussing: someone who knows what is going on, but obviously has a gigantic ego and wants things his own way to a major fault. He is a businessman, he owns the team, and he deserves to know what is happening. And that probably has no bearing on the power of the guy he hired on the condition of giving him full power.

It's not going to take a moron to see your defense of Angelos.

Seriously though, you'll have to show where I said keeping Angelos in the loop constitutded not having full autority becaus eI'm pretty sure I never said that.

You have and always have had more faith in Angelos than the rest of us. That's your opinion and you are welcome to it; however, actions speak louder than words and ten straight losing seasons tells me more than a successful law practice when it comes to whether he should be taken seriously as a baseball man.

[Insomniac]

Despite the risk of being labeled an "Angelos Defender" for life on OH with my first post, I just wanted to point out the irony of the folks on OH who believe that PA should just sit back in his office and write checks while AM runs the show. We are all true-blood Orioles, and we would all each sell our soul to be able to own and play with the Orioles. Its the ULTIMATE TOY, and I do not believe for a second that anyone that posts here regularly on OH, or anyone that complains regularly about PA, wouldn't stick their noses into baseball operations as much (if not a lot more) than what PA is perceived to do. Folks, PA is not in this for the money. He's a smart man and he could be getting a much better financial return on the cash he's sunk into this team. He's in this because he loves baseball and he loves the Os. Of course he's going to be involved. Of course he's going to ask that his GM keep him in the loop. And of course his ego and passion for the game (and for some of his players) will lead him to snatch a cookie from the jar every now and then (and I, for one, am glad that BRob is still here for us to rant about, instead of Giles and LaRoche). Crucify him all you want, especially since he has made so many bad choices with his "toy," but lets not kid ourselves that we wouldn't do exactly the same thing if we were him (although, of course, I'm sure we all think we'd be better at it than PA). Do I wish PA would sell the team and exit stage left? Of course, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. In the interim, though, I'm with Belkast on wiping the slate clean for the new AM regime. Unless and until AM tells us that PA is no longer giving him however much authority AM thinks he should have. This has been a weird and crappy two months, but I sure as hell feel much better with AM at the helm that what came before him.

[Hank Scorpio]

Despite the risk of being labeled an "Angelos Defender" for life on OH with my first post, I just wanted to point out the irony of the folks on OH who believe that PA should just sit back in his office and write checks while AM runs the show. We are all true-blood Orioles, and we would all each sell our soul to be able to own and play with the Orioles. Its the ULTIMATE TOY, and I do not believe for a second that anyone that posts here regularly on OH, or anyone that complains regularly about PA, wouldn't stick their noses into baseball operations as much (if not a lot more) than what PA is perceived to do. Folks, PA is not in this for the money. He's a smart man and he could be getting a much better financial return on the cash he's sunk into this team. He's in this because he loves baseball and he loves the Os. Of course he's going to be involved. Of course he's going to ask that his GM keep him in the loop. And of course his ego and passion for the game (and for some of his players) will lead him to snatch a cookie from the jar every now and then (and I, for one, am glad that BRob is still here for us to rant about, instead of Giles and LaRoche). Crucify him all you want, especially since he has made so many bad choices with his "toy," but lets not kid ourselves that we wouldn't do exactly the same thing if we were him (although, of course, I'm sure we all think we'd be better at it than PA). Do I wish PA would sell the team and exit stage left? Of course, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. In the interim, though, I'm with Belkast on wiping the slate clean for the new AM regime. Unless and until AM tells us that PA is no longer giving him however much authority AM thinks he should have. This has been a weird and crappy two months, but I sure as hell feel much better with AM at the helm that what came before him.

Wedge!!!!!!!!!!

LOOKOUT!!!!!!!!!!!

(Welcome aboard, Wedgebuster)

[Tony-OH]

Despite the risk of being labeled an "Angelos Defender" for life on OH with my first post, I just wanted to point out the irony of the folks on OH who believe that PA should just sit back in his office and write checks while AM runs the show. We are all true-blood Orioles, and we would all each sell our soul to be able to own and play with the Orioles. Its the ULTIMATE TOY, and I do not believe for a second that anyone that posts here regularly on OH, or anyone that complains regularly about PA, wouldn't stick their noses into baseball operations as much (if not a lot more) than what PA is perceived to do. Folks, PA is not in this for the money. He's a smart man and he could be getting a much better financial return on the cash he's sunk into this team. He's in this because he loves baseball and he loves the Os. Of course he's going to be involved. Of course he's going to ask that his GM keep him in the loop. And of course his ego and passion for the game (and for some of his players) will lead him to snatch a cookie from the jar every now and then (and I, for one, am glad that BRob is still here for us to rant about, instead of Giles and LaRoche). Crucify him all you want, especially since he has made so many bad choices with his "toy," but lets not kid ourselves that we wouldn't do exactly the same thing if we were him (although, of course, I'm sure we all think we'd be better at it than PA). Do I wish PA would sell the team and exit stage left? Of course, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. In the interim, though, I'm with Belkast on wiping the slate clean for the new AM regime. Unless and until AM tells us that PA is no longer giving him however much authority AM thinks he should have. This has been a weird and crappy two months, but I sure as hell feel much better with AM at the helm that what came before him.

You might want to try paragraphs while defending Angelos.

Seriously though, I'm not sure what the point of this is? If I understand you correctly, it's Angelos' toy and he should have every right to to what he wants with it because you would do the same thing?

If Angelos wants to be a baseball man he should focus on being baseball man, not just coming after all the leg work is done and veto or change the original plans. He should be sitting in the organizational meetings, be at Camden Yards every day, and basically make sure everyone knows he is basically his own GM like Jerry Jones is with Dallas.

Barring this, he should hire baseball men and let them be baseball men.

[Insomniac]

You might want to try paragraphs while defending Angelos.

Seriously though, I'm not sure what the point of this is? If I understand you correctly, it's Angelos' toy and he should have every right to to what he wants with it because you would do the same thing?

If Angelos wants to be a baseball man he should focus on being baseball man, not just coming after all the leg work is done and veto or change the original plans. He should be sitting in the organizational meetings, be at Camden Yards every day, and basically make sure everyone knows he is basically his own GM like Jerry Jones is with Dallas.

Barring this, he should hire baseball men and let them be baseball men.

Sorry about the single paragraph. You'll never have to give me that advice twice!

I'm also sorry if you thought my point was that I think PA should get to do whatever he wants whenever he wants just because he owns the team. My only point (although apparently badly stated) was that we should all recognize that we would all likely do what he on occasion does (which is meddle in the affairs of his "basebeball men").

I don't disagree that he should hire baseball men and let his baseball men run operations. I also doubt he would disagree with that statement. In fact, he probably feels that he has done just that by hiring AM, and as far as we know AM feels he has as much of the reins in his hands as he needs.

I do disagree, though, as I stated before, that we should expect him to just sit back and write checks without a care as to how AM runs the show. He cares, and we'd care too if we were sitting in his chair.

[RShack]

MAcPhail has said all along that he is in constant contact with Angelos over these trade offers. Say what you want on whether that's right or wrong, but that doesn't sound like someone with full authority.

Full authority means MacPhail talks with Angelos before the offseason, develops a plan, then has the authority to act on that plan as long as it doesn't diverge.

I'm not sure where the line is between "full authority" and "meddlesome owner", but IMO it's a fuzzy line. Unless we had their phones tapped, I don't think we really know what goes on when they talk. But, apart from all that, I disagree with the idea that AM and PA are supposed to talk before the off-season about a plan (which I'm sure they did) and then AM just proceeds without constant contact. I don't think it's true to say that's how good businesses are supposed to run.

For example, Roger Penske (the racing guy) is one of the best businessmen in the world. He's got a bunch of different companies. He's famous for hiring the best people (and knowing how to pick them), and then letting them do their jobs. However, that does not mean that he's hands-off. He's not. From each one of his various operations, he gets a report every morning. In addition to verbal communication, he gets a 1-page written update about the status of each operation (not a 2pp update, but a 1p update.) every single day. There's nothing bad about the owner talking everyday with the guys who run things for him. Not all business owners do it, but there's nothing wrong with it. Many excellent business owners do it. Not saying that PA is a good owner, but I don't think that just the idea that PA and AM talk everyday means anything about AM not having sufficient authority.