Have we sacrificed too much the last 2 seasons trying to be in "win now" mode?

[Stotle]

It is a concern that the farm system could dry up to the point where it no longer produces enough to sustain the organization. We'll see.

I think the overarching plan is to continue to compete, to field a .500+ major league team, while staying within budget constraints and avoid trading the really key pieces of the farm system. I don't think it's necessary to go all-in with a specific flavor of plan, like targeting one type of players or having scheduled year for everything to come togehter. I think it's legitimate for Duquette's to have a relatively high-level plan that's something like "acquire talent that fits our budget and needs, don't trade guys like Bundy or Gausman, keep the core intact, and make sure Buck thinks the guys will fit."

So, this isn't inside info or anything, but orgs do in fact have plans, as a general rule. They shift focuses from building up a farm, to crunching numbers related to FA targets, to projecting out under contract players, and the like. It happens that way because orgs generally don't spend the overhead to have robust analytics/scouting/etc. within each subsection or org development.

So, a rebuilding team pushes more resources into development, prospect trade targets, the draft, international signings, etc. The good orgs continue to keep enough resources in those areas to do operate well, but efficiently, while shifting the org focus to 25-man/40-man issues as it transitions into gearing up to compete at the MLB level.

So what? Well, I guess my hangup (and it's maybe just my hangup and I should get over it) is I have no clue as to what exactly is Baltimore's focus. If the team were truly pouring assets into figuring out how to be competitive, shouldn't there be a plan for the offseason a little more coherent then "see who happens to be available when prices drop"?

Things have worked out well thus far, though I'm sure we'd all agree the state of the AL East in general plays a not insignificant role in that. But Jimenez looked like a bit of a panic move at the time, and now we have a fairly expensive, and redundant, asset that thus far is not producing. That was the product of not signing the first handful of cheaper, shorter term, stopgap solutions earlier in the offseason.

I am sure you will will ding me for *****ing about the O's and being "debie downer", but I can't help that it's possible for me to enjoy watching a team win games while still worrying about a very good number of signals that this front office run has much more the feel of well played Jenga than well thought out foundation building.

[Stotle]

I believe this is exactly what our GM is doing.....within his financial constraints.

I don't see how you view this org's actions as simultaneously building for the present and future, but I'm glad for you that you have that level of comfort. I don't see it.

Is a Jimenez signing an example of thoughtful spending with org strengths and weaknesses taken into account?

[atomic]

That's really the only time you should advocate trading players. The time to trade is when the player you are trading is at his peak value. A player's peak value is when he has an amazing season' date=' and is still under cost control for multiple seasons. The "theory" behind it is pretty simple.[/quote']

He has maximum value because people think he will help their team win. The Orioles also thought they would help the team win. That is why we didn't trade them. You don't trade your core players two years out all the time or you end up being a constant loser. Could you imagine if the Yankees traded Cano for prospects 2 1/2 years ago? Could you imagine how that would have went over? I don't understand why people on here still have the loser mentality they had in days of old. You can get the compensation pick if you offer Wieters the 15 million or whaterver and he doesn't take it.

[Stotle]

They seem to be infusing the system with talent while losing the picks. Guys from last year are already moving up fast. How can you say that the off-season plan was aimless? THey got the best hitter out of free agency. Anyway DD has had success everywhere he goes. It is obvious with each move he makes he has a plan. He wants depth in triple A and he got rid of a lot of "prospects" from the previous regime that were overrated by the team.

Really how can anyone criticize DD at this point. The whole organization was a joke when he got here. Now we are in first place and we have more and more guys who can contribute soon.

The guys the Orioles ended up with were like plans B, C, or D depending on the particulars.

I don't see the talent infusion to which you're referring, but I guess it could be there. Do you mean just drafting people last year? There were like at least 27 or 28 other teams participating in the same process. A lot of them were also signing a load of international amateurs.

[Stotle]

He has maximum value because people think he will help their team win. The Orioles also thought they would help the team win. That is why we didn't trade them. You don't trade your core players two years out all the time or you end up being a constant loser. Could you imagine if the Yankees traded Cano for prospects 2 1/2 years ago? Could you imagine how that would have went over? I don't understand why people on here still have the loser mentality they had in days of old. You can get the compensation pick if you offer Wieters the 15 million or whaterver and he doesn't take it.

I think these decisions are more nuanced then you are making them out to be. There aren't hard fast rules.

[atomic]

I don't see how you view this org's actions as simultaneously building for the present and future, but I'm glad for you that you have that level of comfort. I don't see it.

Is a Jimenez signing an example of thoughtful spending with org strengths and weaknesses taken into account?

Jiminez is better than what was here last year. You need solid pitching to win. We didn't have that last year and we put a few guys who shouldn't have been in the bigs out there and they got hammered and were out by the fourth inning quite a bit. Which was destroying the bullpen. DD is trying to get guys who can pitch innings. That is why they got Norris as well. This is what Buck wants.

Jiminez is third on the team in innings pitched. He has a 4.52 ERA which isn't terrible for pitchers who's home stadium is Camden Yards and have to pitch in the stadiums like they have in Toronto , New York and Boston a lot. I would say he has been an average starter. When you think last season Freddy Garcia has an ERA of 5.77 that is well below average.

[Stotle]

Jiminez is better than what was here last year. You need solid pitching to win. We didn't have that last year and we put a few guys who shouldn't have been in the bigs out there and they got hammered and were out by the fourth inning quite a bit. Which was destroying the bullpen. DD is trying to get guys who can pitch innings. That is why they got Norris as well. This is what Buck wants.

Jiminez is third on the team in innings pitched. He has a 4.52 ERA which isn't terrible for pitchers who's home stadium is Camden Yards and have to pitch in the stadiums like they have in Toronto , New York and Boston a lot. I would say he has been an average starter. When you think last season Freddy Garcia has an ERA of 5.77 that is well below average.

He's signed for four years. Once Markakis leaves he'll be the second highest player on the team behind Jones. If you think that's savvy spending for a team on a "limited budget", well fine. I don't think that's particularly impressive planning.

[Reboulet'sStache]

Valuable? He was drafted in the 19th round because people didn't think he was going to amount to much. The team signed him and then got a solid starter for 2 1/2 years out of him and a pick the next year. That is pretty amazing. Getting a solid pitcher for so little is frankly outstanding. And something the previous regimes were unable to do.

Mike Piazza was taken in the 60something round. Where you are taken shouldn't matter. If people were wrong, they were wrong. If you held that draft again, Hader would have been taken sooner. And that was true at the time the O's traded him. He was no longer looked at as some 19th round guy. Sending prospects regarded as an eventually 3-4 starter, and draft picks, for average starters, isn't a long term strategy for success.

[atomic]

Mike Piazza was taken in the 60something round. Where you are taken shouldn't matter. If people were wrong' date=' they were wrong. If you held that draft again, Hader would have been taken sooner. And that was true at the time the O's traded him. He was no longer looked at as some 19th round guy. Sending prospects regarded as an eventually 3-4 starter, and draft picks, for average starters, isn't a long term strategy for success.[/quote']

So you are stating trading a guy who could possibly be one day a 3rd or 4th starter many years down the road for a guy who is currently a #3 starter in the big leagues is a mistake? Glad you aren't the GM.

[Guest]

Man.

Who knows. And frankly, who cares.

We're winning after 14 years of not. And we started winning with basically no farm system. Dan went out and acquired Chen and Gonzo, got Hammel on a good year, a few guys panned out like Davis and Hunter out of the 'pen. All with basically just Machado and Bundy in the system and that's it.

I'm not real worried about sacrificing anything for the sake of wins, since winning is the point. They sacrificed the right guys. And they kept most of the right guys so far. Baseball is a gamble.

This 100%. Now this what have we really sacrificed?

2012

Orioles get Jim Thome give up Gabriel Lino and Kyle Simon. Sorry I'm not crying over this one

Orioles get Joe Saunders give up Matt Lindstrom. Once again not crying over this one.

2013

Orioles get Bud Norris give up L.J. Hoes , Josh Hader and 2014 competitive balance pick. Once again not crying over this move we needed a SP bad.

Orioles get Francisco Rodriguez give up Nick Delmonico. Sorry with Manny in Baltimore this kid was blocked.

Orioles get Scott Feldman and Steve Clevenger and give up Jake Arrieta (Sorry folks Jake was a mess in Baltimore) Pedro Strop not crying over this move.

To the people that said we should trade Davis , Jim Johnson , Wieters and Hardy.

Hardy- No team in MLB would have traded Hardy you don't trade SS that hit 77 HR in 3 years.

Johnson- Sorry Baltimore fans overrate this guy big time. He never had real trade value.

Davis- Why trade him? NO team in MLB is gonna give you anything good for 1.5 good years of Davis. As you can see in 2014 Davis is back to his old ways.

Wieters- Once again fans overrate him what do you think your gonna get for a catcher that cant hit over .250 ?

In summary the Orioles over the last 2.5 years haven't really sacrificed much.

[Reboulet'sStache]

He has maximum value because people think he will help their team win. The Orioles also thought they would help the team win. That is why we didn't trade them. You don't trade your core players two years out all the time or you end up being a constant loser. Could you imagine if the Yankees traded Cano for prospects 2 1/2 years ago? Could you imagine how that would have went over? I don't understand why people on here still have the loser mentality they had in days of old. You can get the compensation pick if you offer Wieters the 15 million or whaterver and he doesn't take it.

1. While I didn't think Davis would be this bad, I thought he was going to have a serious regression this season. Unlike somebody like Cano, who was/is always going to be good.

2. The Yankees are capable of operating on a different level than the Orioles are. What they are able to do, and what we are able to do, are two different things.

3. It's not a loser mentality. It's actually the opposite. I think/thought with Gausman and Bundy, the Orioles are going to have two front end starters. I was/am excited about their future in the next few years, and wanted to make moves that put the Orioles in position to take advantage of their Gausman-Bundy window. Davis isn't going to be apart of that window.

[Camden_yardbird]

At some point you have to decide that you have an opportunity to win it all and go for it. That means not dealing Chris Davis, not dealing Matt Wieters. Trading to get guys like Norris or give good a contract to a guy like Ubaldo. You have to take chances.

I think it's year and next are appropriate windows for that. The Yankees are down, the red sox are rebuilding, the Rays look down.

If you are going to start trading this proven producers than why are you going to keep a Tillman or a Jones? Those guys are going to ensure your not getting a top 5 pick.

It's really easy to say in hindsight that we would be better off if we traded a guy having a down season. And it's really easy to say if we just traded our proven commodities for prospects who were good prospects we would be better off. But we don't know what the Orioles could actually have gotten for those guys. We didn't know Davis wasn't going to produce like the last two years or Wieters would get hurt. If those things don't happen, the orioles might be the best team in baseball.

Cue Herm Edwards.

[atomic]

He's signed for four years. Once Markakis leaves he'll be the second highest player on the team behind Jones. If you think that's savvy spending for a team on a "limited budget", well fine. I don't think that's particularly impressive planning.

Markakis might be here another 4 years. But whatever. You have guys who are making less amounts than they are worth pitching on the team which balances out guys making more than they are worth. That is free agency for you. If you didn't realize it free agent pitchers aren't beating down the Orioles door trying to pitch at Camden Yards. It is not like that 12 million a year would have been used on another player. There weren't other quality free agent starting pitchers who were willing to come here. It is just 12 million that the ownership would have kept.

[Reboulet'sStache]

So you are stating trading a guy who could possibly be one day a 3rd or 4th starter many years down the road for a guy who is currently a #3 starter in the big leagues is a mistake? Glad you aren't the GM.

Bud Norris is not a number 3 starter. Norris is someone people thought was going to end up in the bullpen. And he still might. ERA, FIP, SO/9. All of it is average.

[wildcard]

What Dan and Buck have done over the last two and a half years has been impressive. I see no reason to shoot at them for what they have done.

What they do over the next two and half will be interesting to follow with many of the core players coming up for free agency. I don't pretend to know what will happen.