SBNATION: Why Ex-Oriole Bobby Grich will never make the HOF (+ why Jeter should not be first ballot)

[weams]

You think the sons are smart enough to know that?

If the media ever got a hold of Jeter expressing that desire...

Angelos was smart enough to know. Sure. I'll give them credit.

[Redskins Rick]

Jeter's entire career was in the steroid era. Pitching was shell shocked. If you did not hit it out on them, they counted that as a victory. Of course his offensive stats are good. He was a very good player. And as another poster stated, he would have made a fine Oriole. Leftfielder.

I thought they tried him in the outfield in the minor and it was a disaster.

[Lester Freamon]

Wait... what? Do they even have qualifications for the NFL HOF? I was under the impression that they just kind of make things up as they go. Heck, for most of NFL history there's whole classes of players (linemen) for which there's basically no objective information available.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Doesn't the NFL have to enter at least 4 players every year? Baseball got three this year (after zero the year before) and it feels like a bumper crop!

[weams]

Derek's Induction Class

56. Larry Walker (17) 72.6 L

57. Derek Jeter (20, 40) 72.2 R

58. Harry Heilmann+ (17) 72.1 R

59. Rafael Palmeiro (20) 71.6 L

60. Johnny Mize+ (15) 71.0 L

61. Bobby Grich (17) 70.9 R

62. Frankie Frisch+ (19) 70.4 B

Ron Santo+ (15) 70.4 R

Alan Trammell (20) 70.4 R

65. Barry Larkin+ (19) 70.2 R

Bobby Wallace+ (25) 70.2 R

67. Scott Rolen (17) 70.0 R

[DrungoHazewood]

I thought they tried him in the outfield in the minor and it was a disaster.

If they did it was spring training or an exhibition or something. He's never played a professional inning in the field anywhere except shortstop.

[Redskins Rick]

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Doesn't the NFL have to enter at least 4 players every year? Baseball got three this year (after zero the year before) and it feels like a bumper crop!

Correct

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Football_Hall_of_Fame

[srock]

Essentially, defensive WAR would be the only reason Jeter wouldn't be a first-ballot (or otherwise) Hall of Fame lock.

And considering public defensive metrics are imperfect (Fangraphs admits as much), it's not realistically outweighing Jeter's otherwise HOF shoo-in resume.

Any legitimate reason is good enough to keep someone off the 1st ballot. Not enough to keep him out of the Hall all together.

[weams]

YANKEE FANS will be outraged if he is not unanimous.

Any legitimate reason is good enough to keep someone off the 1st ballot. Not enough to keep him out of the Hall all together.

[weams]

Bill James chimes in on why Derek is not worthy.

Jeter’s “OK” performance in Relative Range Factor in 2005 is an aberration in his career. It was only the second time in his career that his Relative Range Factor hasn’t been absolutely horrible. In fact, although I haven’t figured enough Relative Range Factors yet to say for certain, I will be absolutely astonished if there is any other shortstop in major league history whose Relative Range Factors are anywhere near as bad as Jeter’s. I’ll be amazed.

[weams]

Bill James continues.

I was looking for modern seasons, because I wanted modern readers to recognize the player, and I was looking for teams that had shortstops you might remember. Of course, 80% of the teams at the bottom of the list were 25 years ago or more, and most of the other “classically bad” shortstops were guys who were just regulars for one year, so people wouldn’t necessarily remember them.

Eventually I found the player I needed—Wilfredo Cordero in 1995. Everybody remembers Wilfredo; everybody knows he wasn’t much of a shortstop. I found him after walking past six separate seasons of Derek Jeter. While virtually no other recognizable name at shortstop had had even one season in which his team had 40 fewer assists by shortstops than expected, Jeter had season after season after season in that category.

We have, then, a third independent method which confirms that Jeter’s range, in terms of his ability to get to a groundball, is substantially below average. All three methods suggest essentially the same shortfall. We have one more method.

Our fourth method is zone ratings. The concept of zone ratings was invented by John Dewan—the primary author of this book—in the 1980s. Over the years zone ratings have proliferated, some of them better than others. The zone ratings presented here are not exactly the same as the originals. They’re better. . .better thought out, better designed, with access to better accounts of the game.

[Redskins Rick]

If they did it was spring training or an exhibition or something. He's never played a professional inning in the field anywhere except shortstop.

I have to go back and re-read Jeter's book.

But, I remember a quote in his book from Tim Cullen, who you probably remember as the Senators infielder.

He called the Jeter the worst Shortstop he ever saw after scouting him in one game.

[DrungoHazewood]

Bill James continues.

I don't think anything there is particularly surprising. But what does James' Win/Loss shares methodology say about Jeter's overall production? It almost certainly would come to a similar conclusion as the various flavors of WAR, especially since Win Shares believes that defense is a smaller part of run prevention than other systems.

[DrungoHazewood]

I have to go back and re-read Jeter's book.

But, I remember a quote in his book from Tim Cullen, who you probably remember as the Senators infielder.

He called the Jeter the worst Shortstop he ever saw after scouting him in one game.

The worst regular major league shortstop he ever saw? I'm sure he was better than Ty Wigginton. Or like 11 guys currenty in A ball. Or JP from my old softball team.

[OFFNY]

I wonder how long Giraldi could hold on if Jetes let it slip he wanted to manage?

He can't manage in New York. Just like Cal can't here. You can't ever fire them.

If the Steinbrenners inherited even a smidgen of their father's ego, temperament, and/or compulsiveness, they could fire anyone ....... multiple times.

[weams]

The worst regular major league shortstop he ever saw? I'm sure he was better than Ty Wigginton. Or like 11 guys currenty in A ball. Or JP from my old softball team.

Not that play a game there. Drungo. Played twenty YEARS there! It's like Wiggy was our shortstop for two decades. And we won. It takes 1500 million a year to make THAT happen.