SBNATION: Why Ex-Oriole Bobby Grich will never make the HOF (+ why Jeter should not be first ballot)

[Frobby]

Maybe we should just start a Hall of WAR, where the most recently invented regular season individual stats are all that matters. Until then, the player's teams' success, performance in the postseason, and conventional stats are always going to carry a lot of weight.

By the way, Jeter is not the first player whose HOF credentials were enhanced because he had great teammates. It's actually quite common. I count seven Yankee HOFers who had less than 60 WAR, including four who were under 50. But they all had a lot of rings.

[weams]

Maybe we should just start a Hall of WAR, where the most recently invented regular season individual stats are all that matters. Until then, the player's teams' success, performance in the postseason, and conventional stats are always going to carry a lot of weight.

By the way, Jeter is not the first player whose HOF credentials were enhanced because he had great teammates. It's actually quite common. I count seven Yankee HOFers who had less than 60 WAR, including four who were under 50. But they all had a lot of rings.

I just said Bobby was a better player. That's all. Of course they will induct Derek. I just told Roy that his own friend was a better ballplayer. The guy he breaks bread with. Was better.

[Redskins Rick]

The worst regular major league shortstop he ever saw? I'm sure he was better than Ty Wigginton. Or like 11 guys currenty in A ball. Or JP from my old softball team.

The quote is in his book.

I just looked it on my kindle and yes.

This takes place during Jeter's first season in the minors and a report from Cullen to Gene Michaels the GM. At the time, there was talk in the Yankee FO of maybe moving Jeter to CF and trying him there. Jeter had 59 errors in his first season, they put some of the blame on a really bad first base prospect that couldn't field. Nick Delvicchio.

Page 59.

"God Almighty. This is the worst shortstop I've ever seen. Where did you get him."

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe we should just start a Hall of WAR, where the most recently invented regular season individual stats are all that matters. Until then, the player's teams' success, performance in the postseason, and conventional stats are always going to carry a lot of weight.

First, people have done that. Obviously not in brick-and-mortar fashion.

Second, I'm ok with people using other criteria. I'm ok with people getting inducted on the basis of what was thought of as state-of-the-art at the time. But I'm also of a mind that those methods directly impact the standards of what a Hall of Famer is. I don't agree that you keep Bobby Grich out because when he was active we didn't understand he was twice as good as some other HOFers.

I think a lot of the team success/postseason performance/conventional stats/reputation/legend justification is cover for a convoluted, at times almost nonsensical voting system. I'm fine with saying a postseason hero who was best ever at turning the DP should be in the Hall, but not to the exclusion of someone like Grich who was almost three times as good but without the appropriate legend.

[DrungoHazewood]

The quote is in his book.

I just looked it on my kindle and yes.

This takes place during Jeter's first season in the minors and a report from Cullen to Gene Michaels the GM. At the time, there was talk in the Yankee FO of maybe moving Jeter to CF and trying him there. Jeter had 59 errors in his first season, they put some of the blame on a really bad first base prospect that couldn't field. Nick Delvicchio.

Page 59.

"God Almighty. This is the worst shortstop I've ever seen. Where did you get him."

Ok, so just kind of a off-hand comment.

[Redskins Rick]

Ok, so just kind of a off-hand comment.

Off-hand, okay, right, not in his formal scouting report.

But, from Scout to his Boss, sounds like a candid comment.

[weams]

First, people have done that. Obviously not in brick-and-mortar fashion.

Second, I'm ok with people using other criteria. I'm ok with people getting inducted on the basis of what was thought of as state-of-the-art at the time. But I'm also of a mind that those methods directly impact the standards of what a Hall of Famer is. I don't agree that you keep Bobby Grich out because when he was active we didn't understand he was twice as good as some other HOFers.

I think a lot of the team success/postseason performance/conventional stats/reputation/legend justification is cover for a convoluted, at times almost nonsensical voting system. I'm fine with saying a postseason hero who was best ever at turning the DP should be in the Hall, but not to the exclusion of someone like Grich who was almost three times as good but without the appropriate legend.

What do you want out of a career .290 ops that is almost entirely .260 batting average driven! Of course he should be enshrined!

[weams]

Does Derek have any babies? Because if no I will probably never have to hear the drivel about the next great Boston center fielder. Derek Jeter Jr.

[Guest rochester]

Always have been a huge fan of Grich, much less so Jeter, so am not sure if the bias wouldn't show, but I do not have an issue with Jeter getting in as much as Grich not getting in. As far as wins/championships one can't argue with what Jeter has been involved in (purposefully left out done). Although it is none of his doing and he shared the load, these MFY teams were paid mercenaries, bought and paid for on a budget not many could touch.

[El Gordo]

If we are concerned about the HOF being more objective about their choices, start with taking the vote away from sports writers(glorified gossip columnists, so no wonder the vote is full of hype). Jeter to my mind is the opposite of Ozzy Smith who couldn't really hit all that much, but was one of the best fielding SS ever. Jeter was not all that good with the glove but was one of the best hitting SS ever. At least he's not Phil Rizzuto. But he's no Cal either. Unfortunately he has been so canonized that he may be the first player to get a unanimous HOF vote.

[Frobby]

First, people have done that. Obviously not in brick-and-mortar fashion.

Second, I'm ok with people using other criteria. I'm ok with people getting inducted on the basis of what was thought of as state-of-the-art at the time. But I'm also of a mind that those methods directly impact the standards of what a Hall of Famer is. I don't agree that you keep Bobby Grich out because when he was active we didn't understand he was twice as good as some other HOFers.

I think a lot of the team success/postseason performance/conventional stats/reputation/legend justification is cover for a convoluted, at times almost nonsensical voting system. I'm fine with saying a postseason hero who was best ever at turning the DP should be in the Hall, but not to the exclusion of someone like Grich who was almost three times as good but without the appropriate legend.

I understand this point of view. Obviously, if you were starting the HOF from scratch, the players enshrined would be somewhat different, and there are reasons to have a mechanism to induct deserving players who were overlooked when they were eligible initially. But I do think it is not completely irrational that if you had two players with essentially equivalent regular season individual qualifications, the one who played on perennially winning teams and did well in the postseason might get in to the Hall while the other did not.

[srock]

If we are concerned about the HOF being more objective about their choices, start with taking the vote away from sports writers(glorified gossip columnists, so no wonder the vote is full of hype). Jeter to my mind is the opposite of Ozzy Smith who couldn't really hit all that much, but was one of the best fielding SS ever. Jeter was not all that good with the glove but was one of the best hitting SS ever. At least he's not Phil Rizzuto. But he's no Cal either. Unfortunately he has been so canonized that he may be the first player to get a unanimous HOF vote.

Someone won't vote for him. Someone from Boston or, hopefully Baltimore , won't vote for him just because he was a Yankee.

Or because he so bad in the field.

Or because when ARod was acquired he didn't move to 2b for the good of the team. (Remember, ARod was hands down the best SS and had yet to be vilified).

I Cal wasn't unanimous, it would be absurd for jeter to be.

Let the Mfy fans have a conniption, it will be better the sports media anyway.

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[Can_of_corn]

Someone won't vote for him. Someone from Boston or, hopefully Baltimore , won't vote for him just because he was a Yankee.

Or because he so bad in the field.

Or because when ARod was acquired he didn't move to 2b for the good of the team. (Remember, ARod was hands down the best SS and had yet to be vilified).

I Cal wasn't unanimous, it would be absurd for jeter to be.

Let the Mfy fans have a conniption, it will be better the sports media anyway.

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Well last year you had folks sending in ballots with just Morris on them. Maybe those guys will send in blank ones. Or someone boycotting the whole process over steroids.

Too many incompetent voters for anyone to be unanimous.

[Redskins Rick]

Well last year you had folks sending in ballots with just Morris on them. Maybe those guys will send in blank ones. Or someone boycotting the whole process over steroids.

Too many incompetent voters for anyone to be unanimous.

:wedge:

[Frobby]

Someone won't vote for him. Someone from Boston or, hopefully Baltimore , won't vote for him just because he was a Yankee.

Or because he so bad in the field.

Or because when ARod was acquired he didn't move to 2b for the good of the team. (Remember, ARod was hands down the best SS and had yet to be vilified).

I Cal wasn't unanimous, it would be absurd for jeter to be.

Let the Mfy fans have a conniption, it will be better the sports media anyway.

It is ridiculous that there haven't been any unanimous Hall of Famers by now, but if Jeter is the first, I'll puke.