In house 2B options

[tntoriole]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good grief. This infatuation with Flaherty is mind boggling.

Amen. When people talk about what Flaherty did last year, they only, only, only talk about the second half. They conveniently forget somehow that he had the worst first half at the plate last year of any Oriole starter in their 50 year history. And that he similarly had the same "performance" to begin this year and has not improved much. And just saying over and over that somehow Flaherty will do the same this year as he did only in the last half of last year is not bearing fruit (see Chris Davis to note whether a last year's performance record relates much to this year's). Since the Orioles did not obtain an upgrade by trade (and I still think they very well may), the only

criteria for second base appears to be defense. Both of the current second basemen are so awful offensively that there is no basis on picking one over the other on this basis alone, although Flaherty not covering second the other night was awful. Second base is our Belanger position right now- no offense is coming from there, so forget about it. I would platoon them though, righty versus lefty. But I think Schoop is better defensively.

[weams]

It's safe to say Ryan Flaherty is a better second baseman than Schoop today.

I like Weeks and Casilla as utility guys much more than Phelps, DeJesus, or Lombardozzi. Will Weeks be back soon?

I think Ryan should get all the starts against right handers. I am also intrigued with Jimmy Paredes.

[goldenglover]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good grief. This infatuation with Flaherty is mind boggling.

Agree with both of you on this. Who cares that he can field these positions (by the way which MLB utility infielder can't do this). All it means is that we have a crappy back up all along our infield.

I've watched Lombardozzi with the big club and seen him play in person in the minors and the guy is a professional hitter. Right now we need a .280 hitter more than we need a sparkling glove. How many great defenders do you need when we have about 18 guaranteed outs in our lineup right now?

[Can_of_corn]

It's safe to say Ryan Flaherty is a better second baseman than Schoop today.

I like Weeks and Casilla as utility guys much more than Phelps, DeJesus, or Lombardozzi. Will Weeks be back soon?

Flaherty 591 OPS

Schoop 558 OPS

So 33 points (it was nine points a day or two ago) and you are ready to declare Flaherty a better second baseman even though Schoop's defensive stats are better this season?

They are both poor hitters and good fielders. Neither is a "safe" bet to outperform the other for the rest of the season.

[foxfield]

We have won WS with no hit all glove infielders before. You may remember Mark Belanger who played SS for over a decade and won 8 GG for the Orioles. He also hit 20 HR for his career and had a life time batting average of .228 and a career of .580 OPS. Our lack of offense is not the fault of either of the 2B. And the defense they provide is why they are on the field. I would say that making an issue of offense out of either the 2B or the C for the remainder of this season is futile. Anything we get is going to be gravy. I just hope we get lots of gravy.

[russ snyder]

When we don't turn a DP or our 2B makes an error and these lead to runs and a loss here and there, you'll have your answer. Schoop's defense has been outstanding. It would take a significant offensive upgrade without sacrificing much defense. The O's don't seem to be giving consistent 2B starts to Dejesus or anyone else at Norfolk, so an in house option does not seem to be in the cards. I agree with those who say Flaherty has not done anything to warrant the job either. It's not just the lack of production from Schoop as it is how bad his AB's have been. Last night, he actually didn't swing at any bad pitches from what I saw. Even when Caleb Jospeh wasn't hitting, he generally had good AB's. Eventually, he started to hit a little. If Schoop starts to have some good AB's, I'd give him another weeks or two. If not, I think he has to at least be spotted against LHP only.

This is the reason the orioles are dealing with Schoop's offensive struggles. If any of the in house options could play defense anywhere Schoop's level we would have seen them by now. Showalter obviously values defense, and Schoop and flaherty have provided solid defense at second base. IMO, the only way that Schoop is sent down is if the Orioles acquire someone.

[panick]

Let Flaherty play all the time so we can see how many times he doesn't cover second base on a force out

[El Gordo]

Let Flaherty play all the time so we can see how many times he doesn't cover second base on a force out

Or we can let Schoop play all the time and see how many pop ups he screws up leading to game winning runs, as well as what his K/BB will be the next month. :rolleyestf:

[stopthecar]

i keep forgetting about Lombo. i thought he put together some nice at bats earlier in the year and never really looked lost at the plate like schoop and flaherty often do. I think he's worth another look

[Jonesy10]

Amen. When people talk about what Flaherty did last year, they only, only, only talk about the second half. They conveniently forget somehow that he had the worst first half at the plate last year of any Oriole starter in their 50 year history. And that he similarly had the same "performance" to begin this year and has not improved much. And just saying over and over that somehow Flaherty will do the same this year as he did only in the last half of last year is not bearing fruit (see Chris Davis to note whether a last year's performance record relates much to this year's). Since the Orioles did not obtain an upgrade by trade (and I still think they very well may), the only

criteria for second base appears to be defense. Both of the current second basemen are so awful offensively that there is no basis on picking one over the other on this basis alone, although Flaherty not covering second the other night was awful. Second base is our Belanger position right now- no offense is coming from there, so forget about it. I would platoon them though, righty versus lefty. But I think Schoop is better defensively.

His first half OPS last season was .45 points higher than Schoop's this season so that is just a flat out lie. His OPS on the whole season last year was .683, .120 points higher than Schoop's right now. He also had more defensive value in less playing time than Schoop has had this season.

Flaherty has shown he can be a decent starting option. Schoop hast shown that he even belongs in the bigs. School has also gotten continuously worse as the season has gone along while Flaherty has gotten better. Jonathan showed nothing in the minors to warrant being a starting 2B this season. There's still a lot he can work on and prove in the minors before he comes back, like having an OPS over .710.

[flaoriolesfan]

I myself would not mind seeing Dejesus get a shot,I don't feel like his defense would hurt us and if he could hit around .275 or so it would be a big difference to our offense compared to Schoop and Flaherty. The fact that some people would like to see Flaherty start goes to show just how weak Schoop's bat has really been. In my opinion Ryan is a sub and needs to stay a sub. Whenever i hear of his good second half of a season I just can't help but remember all the other half's of his seasons. If you took away a bunch of players bad stretches of the season you would have some really great stats on some not so great players. Ryan's just not that good, period. At least we are only seeing over a half of a season of Schoop and I have seen enough of Flaherty.

[El Gordo]

i keep forgetting about Lombo. i thought he put together some nice at bats earlier in the year and never really looked lost at the plate like schoop and flaherty often do. I think he's worth another look

If offense was the only consideration then Lombo, Weeks, and Dejesus, would all be better options at 2B. Do they factor in defense in fantasy baseball?

[stopthecar]

If offense was the only consideration then Lombo, Weeks, and Dejesus, would all be better options at 2B. Do they factor in defense in fantasy baseball?

i think a lot of people overrate defense quite a bit. The O's statistically had one of the best defenses in mlb history last year and didnt make the playoffs. Lombo and Dejesus could at least be serviceable defensively and wouldn't suddenly make the whole team's defense a liability

[tntoriole]

His first half OPS last season was .45 points higher than Schoop's this season so that is just a flat out lie. His OPS on the whole season last year was .683, .120 points higher than Schoop's right now. He also had more defensive value in less playing time than Schoop has had this season.

Flaherty has shown he can be a decent starting option. Schoop hast shown that he even belongs in the bigs. School has also gotten continuously worse as the season has gone along while Flaherty has gotten better. Jonathan showed nothing in the minors to warrant being a starting 2B this season. There's still a lot he can work on and prove in the minors before he comes back, like having an OPS over .710.

Disingenous in limiting your answer only to "first half" OPS. The fact is Flaherty was the defacto regular until he was sent to the minors/Roberts came back. His line through the 51 games he was essentially the regular in the position was .191/.256/.594 OPS. Again this year, he could have had a starting position- he played 20/23 games to start the season. His line .188/.264/.502. He has played 219 games with grand totals of .217/.278/.637. Now, I acknowledge that Schoop is also awful at the plate and I think they need an upgrade at 2B. But the argument that Flaherty would be the answer offensively if only he played 162 games a year at second is not borne out by any evidence. He is not a major league starter with the bat, imho. He is a mediocre utility player for the same reason. If his bat requires him playing regularly to be even average, then coming off the bench as a utility player is not well suited for him, either.

[Jonesy10]

Disingenous in limiting your answer only to "first half" OPS. The fact is Flaherty was the defacto regular until he was sent to the minors/Roberts came back. His line through the 51 games he was essentially the regular in the position was .191/.256/.594 OPS. Again this year, he could have had a starting position- he played 20/23 games to start the season. His line .188/.264/.502. He has played 219 games with grand totals of .217/.278/.637. Now, I acknowledge that Schoop is also awful at the plate and I think they need an upgrade at 2B. But the argument that Flaherty would be the answer offensively if only he played 162 games a year at second is not borne out by any evidence. He is not a major league starter with the bat, imho. He is a mediocre utility player for the same reason. If his bat requires him playing regularly to be even average, then coming off the bench as a utility player is not well suited for him, either.

Well you said he had the worst offensive first half in the history of Orioles starters but Schoop has been far worse. That's what I was referring too. His numbers at the plate at the break last year were much better than Jon's.

While Flaherty may not pan out if given the starters job, I don't see him being any worse than Schoop offensively. He's also no slouch defensively. I don't believe Schoop has had a better offensive month season than Flaherty's overall OPS last season. Flaherty's also shown the ability to have outstanding months and endings to the season. There's 2 months left now. If he could have a .750 OPS the rest of the way that would help the team tremendously. If not, there's no harm in letting him start, you can also just let Schoop start again.