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Markakis Fading

Billy Button

By Billy Button
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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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Roch says Ryan Flaherty is starting at second base tonight because Jonathan Schoop is in a 1-for-31 slump in his last eight games. If Buck is using slumps as a reason to sit players, Markakis should be riding the pine, too. In 12 games so far this month, he is 8-for-49 (.163), with no RBI's, no extra base hits, 4 walks, and only 6 runs scored. Right now, Nick is not who you want at the top of your order, or even in the lineup IMO. Put De Aza in the lead-off spot and put Cruz in RF.

:rofl:

You know as well as I do that Buck isn't going to bench a tenured vet for non-performance.

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MurphDogg Hangout Grand Counsel

MurphDogg

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De Aza is 5 months younger than Markakis so lets not pretend it is a case of Markakis being over the hill with Buck refusing to go to a young player who is nipping at his heels. Markakis' career has been vastly superior to De Aza's. De Aza has had a great two weeks. Buck doesn't change lineup construction over a hot two week stretch.

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Babypowder Hangout Veteran Council

Babypowder

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De Aza is 5 months younger than Markakis so lets not pretend it is a case of Markakis being over the hill with Buck refusing to go to a young player who is nipping at his heels. Markakis' career has been vastly superior to De Aza's. De Aza has had a great two weeks. Buck doesn't change lineup construction over a hot two week stretch.

De Aza has totaled 8.7 fWAR over the last 4 seasons. Markakis is at 4.9. There's a very good case that De Aza is a better player at this point in both of their careers.

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Scrat1 Hangout Grand Counsel

Scrat1

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Markakis' career has been vastly superior to De Aza's. De Aza has had a great two weeks. Buck doesn't change lineup construction over a hot two week stretch.

And almost all of that value came at the beginning of his career and is no longer a good predictor of how he's likely to perform in 2015.

De Aza has totaled 8.7 fWAR over the last 4 seasons. Markakis is at 4.9. There's a very good case that De Aza is a better player at this point in both of their careers.

This.

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MurphDogg Hangout Grand Counsel

MurphDogg

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De Aza has totaled 8.7 fWAR over the last 4 seasons. Markakis is at 4.9. There's a very good case that De Aza is a better player at this point in both of their careers.

If you can make an argument as to how De Aza's defense makes him a better candidate to lead off than Markakis then I would love to hear it. Otherwise, De Aza's fWAR is irrelevant.

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Il BuonO Hangout Grand Counsel

Il BuonO

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And almost all of that value came at the beginning of his career and is no longer a good predictor of how he's likely to perform in 2015.

Not really. Not much separating them in terms of offensive production. De Aza wOBA .309 wRC 93 and Markakis wOBA .317 wRC 100.

If you can make an argument as to how De Aza's defense makes him a better candidate to lead off than Markakis then I would love to hear it. Otherwise, De Aza's fWAR is irrelevant.

Defensively De Aza isn't as great as you might think either. I think the numbers in WAR is relevant, but not where it comes down to who should be leading off between the two of them. I was surprised.

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MurphDogg Hangout Grand Counsel

MurphDogg

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Not really. Not much separating them in terms of offensive production. De Aza wOBA .309 wRC 93 and Markakis wOBA .317 wRC 100.

Defensively De Aza isn't as great as you might think either. I think the numbers in WAR is relevant, but not where it comes down to who should be leading off between the two of them. I was surprised.

De Aza's WAR superiority comes from the fact that he is better defensively than Markakis and the fact that he played centerfield and thus his WAR numbers compare him with center fielders who are inferior hitters as a group to the right fielders that Markakis is compared to. Neither have any relevance in determining who should be batting leadoff.

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Reboulet'sStache Veteran All-Star

Reboulet'sStache

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De Aza is 5 months younger than Markakis so lets not pretend it is a case of Markakis being over the hill with Buck refusing to go to a young player who is nipping at his heels. Markakis' career has been vastly superior to De Aza's. De Aza has had a great two weeks. Buck doesn't change lineup construction over a hot two week stretch.

I would switch them not because De Aza is hot, but Nick just isn't your ideal lead off guy. He became the lead off guy by default. We no longer need that default setting.

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Scrat1 Hangout Grand Counsel

Scrat1

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De Aza's WAR superiority comes from the fact that he is better defensively than Markakis and the fact that he played centerfield and thus his WAR numbers compare him with center fielders who are inferior hitters as a group to the right fielders that Markakis is compared to. Neither have any relevance in determining who should be batting leadoff.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of the nature of the debate. My apologies for jumping in mid-discussion. If this is over who is the better lead off hitter, I'm guessing it's pretty close to a wash. De Aza has more speed while Markakis, usually at least, has more patience. I don't have a strong opinion about this one way or the other.

But if this is about who the better player is today and, more importantly, will be in 2015, then I think it's a lot murkier, with the edge probably going to De Aza due to a stronger recent performance. Then when you factor in cost, I think there's a lot of reason to believe Markakis may not be around next year. From a 25-man perspective, we may have room for both of them but I wonder if we will from a payroll perspective.

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Reboulet'sStache Veteran All-Star

Reboulet'sStache

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Nick gets on base more. He's just a bit a base clogger, that's all.

If Markakis heats up, he would be better off hitting with guys on base, instead of having to be the guy on base. The problem with Nick leading off is usually you need two more hits to get him in because he isn't going to advance himself. He doesn't hit many doubles. Doesn't steal. Doesn't get the extra base on a single while on first. etc. And with a low OBP team, asking us to get two more hits isn't an easy order.

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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If Markakis heats up' date=' he would be better off hitting with guys on base, instead of having to be the guy on base. The problem with Nick leading off is usually you need two more hits to get him in because he isn't going to advance himself. He doesn't hit many doubles. Doesn't steal. Doesn't get the extra base on a single while on first. etc. And with a low OBP team, asking us to get two more hits isn't an easy order.[/quote']

He does a fine job of scoring on home runs hit by his team mates.

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Il BuonO Hangout Grand Counsel

Il BuonO

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De Aza's WAR superiority comes from the fact that he is better defensively than Markakis and the fact that he played centerfield and thus his WAR numbers compare him with center fielders who are inferior hitters as a group to the right fielders that Markakis is compared to. Neither have any relevance in determining who should be batting leadoff.

Depends on what year you're talking about doesn't it. If it's this year there is certainly no positional advantage De Aza has over Markakis from playing a whopping 14 games in CF. And again, his defense while better than Markakis on the whole isn't outstanding.

I really don't know what that has to do with batting lead off either which is why I included wOBA and wRC for both players in my previous post.

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