Peter Angelos' Redemption

[Redskins Rick]

This is basically how I see it. My personal "jury" is still out when it comes to Peter Angelos. One good thing: our ballpark is still "Oriole Park at Camden Yards." No commercial naming, not "Esskay Field" or "Under Armour Park" or any such thing.

But I still remember those 14 straight losing seasons. Let's hope that Angelos has learned from his horrible mistakes and will give Duquette, Showalter & Co. free rein to keep our Orioles as a winning team.

Now, let's go ALL THE WAY!!!!

OPACY is run by the Maryland Stadium Authority and they have the rights to the name, not the owner of the ballclub.

[Es4M11]

1993 - 3rd place in Divison.

1994 - 2nd place in Divison and Baseball strike

1995 - another 3rd place in the Division.

Yes, 96 was a trip to the ALCS and 97 and another trip to the ALCS.

96 & 97 was great times, but 93-95 wasn't all that great.

i will just have to disagree with you there. I started watching baseball sometime around 89-90. I went to my first game at Memorial Stadium around that time. I seem to remember that the teams were pretty bad around that time. But it seemed like the Orioles started becoming pretty competitive once Camden Yards opened. As a kid, I just wanted to watch them win more than they lost.

[Redskins Rick]

i will just have to disagree with you there. I started watching baseball sometime around 89-90. I went to my first game at Memorial Stadium around that time. I seem to remember that the teams were pretty bad around that time. But it seemed like the Orioles started becoming pretty competitive once Camden Yards opened. As a kid, I just wanted to watch them win more than they lost.

in 1995, they lost more than they won.

My own personal favorite Oriole team was the 1983 team, but after that it was a dry spell until 96 for sure.

[PeteU]

1993 - 3rd place in Divison.

1994 - 2nd place in Divison and Baseball strike

1995 - another 3rd place in the Division.

Yes, 96 was a trip to the ALCS and 97 and another trip to the ALCS.

96 & 97 was great times, but 93-95 wasn't all that great.

93 and 94 were some decent, good but not great teams. 93 competed until the last week and a half of the season. The 94 team was cut short by the strike, so that was that.

95 was a letdown, but honestly people were so caught up in Cal fever that people really forgot about that team's mediocrity.

[hoosiers]

PA will indeed leave a mixed legacy though the franchise seems to be on a good path for now.

The "14 bad years, 3 good ones" comment is obviously a poorly conceived thought since there were some nice winning years before the bad ones including at least one team that seemed the best in baseball.

PA created, enabled and allowed a level of dysfunction that borders on impossible to believe and he ran off several high quality GMs and managers. It took until about 2008 before the Os were operating on even a small scale internationally.

All that said, a major reason for the extended downturn is due to extremely poor drafting from about 1997/1998 to 2001 when the Os had approx. 15-17 first round and supplemental first round draft picks and basically netted only Brian Roberts and, for other organizations, Jason Werth. Those draft picks were mostly performed by legitimate baseball people. There was poor drafting outside the first round as well (save for Eric Bedard). Decent drafting should have provided three to six above average players (like Markakis) which could have made a pretty good difference in the team's performance in the 2000s even with PA's meddling.

By most estimates, between the Os and MASN, the Os are netting $50M or more for Os owners given slightly higher attendance, higher ticket prices, higher national revenues, etc - with more changes on the way that benefit the Os. PA can ramp up payroll another notch or two and to increase spending on international talent market (while small markets like Cincy and Minn ante up for multi-$M bonus babies) to keep the team competitive while investing in the farm system. There is still time and opportunity for PA to tilt his legacy in the right direction.

[SouthRider]

Personally I believe Angelos' lack of interference with the baseball side of operations has more to do with age and health rather than him learning anything. I suspect John and Lou are more in charge now, and like Jim Irsay, they have learned 'what not to do' by watching their father.

Here is some perspective for you. In 1996 I sat in Camden Yards during the ALCS (right next to two Yankee fan jerk offs , but that is another story) A tear came to my eye as I took it all in. The long 13 year playoff drought from 1983 was over. The big spending O's were a force once again. Pat Gillick was in charge. Davey was the manager. 1997 was great. Then another 14 year drought. My point? Enjoy it while it lasts and don't assume history will not repeat.

[OFFNY]

I find it somewhat narrow minded to begrudge Angelos for the years 2000-2007, and then not even mention the great things that Angelos did for the organization and the city of Baltimore during the 90's. He brought this team back to respectability and was the driving force that created the most beautiful ball park in all of baseball. Don't forget Angelos brought us two playoff appearences and the highest payroll in all of baseball in the late 90's.

Angelos was a hindrance to the team's success from 2000-2007, but he was great in the 90's and has allowed the baseball guys to make the calls for the past 6-7 years. By my count he has had more good years than bad. It seems to me most people's attitudes are skewed because 2000-2007 was such a tough time to be an O's fan.

1997, was the start, when Angelos greatness was greatly tarnished.

I thought that the bad handling/ownership of the team started more around 2000, when Frank Wren was fired.

As another poster pointed out, the W-L record itself does not necessarily equate "bad" or "good" ownership.

Also, the opposite is true, as well.

Case in point:

After Gabe Paul (the Yankees' G.M from 1973-1977) rebuilt the team back into a power (2 World championships, 4 pennants, and 5 division titles from 1976-1981), owner George Steinbrenner's insane temper and compulsiveness with BOTH his managers AND his players drove the Yankees back into a pretty good but no longer great franchise from 1982-1988 (7 out of 8 winning seasons, but no playoff appearances), and finally a bad franchise (4 straight losing seasons from 1989-1992.) It wasn't until commissioner Fay Vincent gave Steinbrenner a permanent ban in July of 1990 (a ban that lasted for 3 years, from 1990-1993) that the Yankees were able to rebuild themselves back into a power again under the guidance of General Manager Gene Michael (1991-1995) and manager Buck Showalter (1992-1995.)

By the time that the Yankees were again standing at the top of the baseball world, winning 5 pennants and 4 World Series in 6 seasons from 1996-2001, Steinbrenner was a little older, and considerably less meddlesome in the affairs of his managers and his players than he had previously been.

So ........ even though the Yankees had 6 consecutive winning seasons from 1983-1988, I don't believe that they had "good" ownership. They were a team that somehow managed to remain competitive (a pretty good team, but not a great team) in spite of the team owner's antics, until they finally bottomed out in 1989, 1990, and 1991.

[Redskins Rick]

By the time that the Yankees were again standing at the top of the baseball world, winning 5 pennants and 4 World Series in 6 seasons from 1996-2001, Steinbrenner was a little older, and considerably less meddlesome in the affairs of his managers and his players than he had previously been.

Buck left in 96, because he wouldnt fire his coaches. George was willing to bring Buck, but wanted to clean house and bring in new guys.

So not sure, I agree with your statement about being less meddlesome.

[Palmoripken]

I thought that the bad handling/ownership of the team started more around 2000, when Frank Wren was fired.

As another poster pointed out, the W-L record itself does not necessarily equate "bad" or "good" ownership.

Also, the opposite is true, as well.

Case in point:

After Gabe Paul (the Yankees' G.M from 1973-1977) rebuilt the team back into a power (2 World championships, 4 pennants, and 5 division titles from 1976-1981), owner George Steinbrenner's insane temper and compulsiveness with BOTH his managers AND his players drove the Yankees back into a pretty good but no longer great franchise from 1982-1988 (7 out of 8 winning seasons, but no playoff appearances), and finally a bad franchise (4 straight losing seasons from 1989-1992.) It wasn't until Fay Vincent gave Steinbrenner the boot for 3 years in July of 1990 (1990-1993) that the Yankees were able to rebuild themselves back into a power again under the guidance of General Manager Gene Michael (1991-1995) and Manager Buck Showalter (1992-1995.)

By the time that the Yankees were again standing at the top of the baseball world, winning 5 pennants and 4 World Series in 6 seasons from 1996-2001, Steinbrenner was a little older, and considerably less meddlesome in the affairs of his managers and his players than he had previously been.

So ........ even though the Yankees had 6 consecutive winning seasons from 1983-1988, I don't believe that they had "good" ownership. They were a team that somehow managed to remain competitive (a pretty good team, but not a great team) in spite of the team owner's antics, until they finally bottomed out in 1989, 1990, and 1991.

You know, speaking of Buck's role in the Yankees resurgence. I was thinking about this. What a funny world it is that the guy who was a major factor in building the team I hated the most (the late 90's through early 00's Yanks) Those guys weren't as merc heavy as the Yankees after 2001 but anyhow I hated them due to the 1996 ALCS and their dynasty. Anyhow I was thinking how strange it is that Buck who helped to build that would end up being the guy who ended up playing a major role in our favorite team's rebirth. Anyhow I do agree with SouthRider that nothing lasts forever but perhaps that is why I have enjoyed the past three years so much. When I was 10 in 1997, I have to confess I thought the good times would never end. I never thought I'd have to wait not just fifteen years without playoff baseball for my favorite team but fifteen years without even a 500+ record. Angelos does deserve criticism for his past meddling but at the same time I do appreciate him first hiring MacPhail, then Buck, and finally Dan Duquette and many others. I really hope he can get a championship added to his resume. There are many O's fans including myself who have never seen an Orioles pennant winner let alone a WS winner and we're so close.

[PeteU]

Personally I believe Angelos' lack of interference with the baseball side of operations has more to do with age and health rather than him learning anything. I suspect John and Lou are more in charge now, and like Jim Irsay, they have learned 'what not to do' by watching their father.

Here is some perspective for you. In 1996 I sat in Camden Yards during the ALCS (right next to two Yankee fan jerk offs , but that is another story) A tear came to my eye as I took it all in. The long 13 year playoff drought from 1983 was over. The big spending O's were a force once again. Pat Gillick was in charge. Davey was the manager. 1997 was great. Then another 14 year drought. My point? Enjoy it while it lasts and don't assume history will not repeat.

Buck Showalter will not be run out of town like Davey Johnson was after 1997. Put good money on it. Those days are over.

[Redskins Rick]

Buck Showalter will not be run out of town like Davey Johnson was after 1997. Put good money on it. Those days are over.[/QUOTE]

I truly hope you are right.

[PeteU]

You know, speaking of Buck's role in the Yankees resurgence. I was thinking about this. What a funny world it is that the guy who was a major factor in building the team I hated the most (the late 90's through early 00's Yanks) Those guys weren't as merc heavy as the Yankees after 2001 but anyhow I hated them due to the 1996 ALCS and their dynasty. Anyhow I was thinking how strange it is that Buck who helped to build that would end up being the guy who ended up playing a major role in our favorite team's rebirth.

How ironic is the fact that back in 1993-1995 most Orioles fans probably booed Buck Showalter out of habit simply because he was wearing the hated pinstripes, not knowing what would unfold nearly 20 years later.

That being said, I hope I never see @$%@$ Joe Girardi in an Orioles uniform.

[Palmoripken]

Buck Showalter will not be run out of town like Davey Johnson was after 1997. Put good money on it. Those days are over.

The other thing and this is while I loved the mid 90's teams didn't last was that the farm system is much better now than it was then. We and I have no problem with it were out Yankeeing the Yankees. The 1997 club was the oldest in baseball and had the highest payroll. Adam Jones would have been a youngster on that team but on the current O's he's a veteran and he doesn't turn 30 until next August. What Buck and Dan are doing is building a long term model for the club.

[Frobby]

93 and 94 were some decent, good but not great teams. 93 competed until the last week and a half of the season. The 94 team was cut short by the strike, so that was that.

95 was a letdown, but honestly people were so caught up in Cal fever that people really forgot about that team's mediocrity.

I enjoyed those '93-94 teams, which Angelos essentially inherited. His first big mistake was firing Johnny Oates and replacing him with Phil Regan for the '95 season.

[weams]

Buck Showalter will not be run out of town like Davey Johnson was after 1997. Put good money on it. Those days are over.[/QUOTE]

I truly hope you are right.

Buck Showalter won't force a player to contribute a "fine" to his wife's charity either.