Roberts Must Go

[Roll Tide]

It doesn't make any sense for Baltimore to trade Roberts for the guys like EPat and Cedeno. This isn't because they aren't good enough to start on Baltimore's roster now, but because they are not an upgrade over Roberts, and don't, in my view, project to ever be really successful in the bigs. The trade is then two years of Roberts for parts that never work. The alternative to that is keep Roberts and in two years you don't have a second baseman - no more detrimental than trading him for the Cubs' spare parts. In fact, it's a better alternative. You don't trade Roberts to the Cubs for Epat and Cedeno. It makes no sense from Baltimore's position. I don't care if Gallagher is included.

I agree but you can take 1 of those as the 3rd or 4th guy.

In the Murton, Gallagher, Colvin/Veal & Cedeno What do you really expect to get for the 4th guy in the deal???

[Roll Tide]

Respectfully, would you be more willing to entertain an offer of Colvin, Burke, Ceda, and Huseby? Four young guys (2 OF, 1 RP, 1 SP) with huge ceilings but question marks?

The way I see it, Roberts will likely get you players who are ML ready, or high ceiling... but not both. Guys who are ML ready and high ceiling are probably already starting for their respective teams. So if you aren't willing to take ML ready guys who are moderate upgrades over what you currently have, are you willing to take on high ceiling guys with big question marks, but who may be huge improvements over what you have in 3-4 years?

Actually Rob ... I believe what Stotle is saying is that he wants a stud 2B or SS prospect in return. The Orioles after the deals for Tejada , & Bedard (if it ever gets done) are missing a SS & 1B high end guy. Add Roberts & now we need a 2B.

What I dont think he gets is "Rome Wasn't Built in a Day" & we shouldn't expect the Orioles will get better in 1 season. Murton, Gallgher & whatever 2 of the other guys we could add would make us a better team. Is Cedeno a upgarde over LH ... He hasn't shown it yet but he could be. Considering he would be the 3rd or 4th guy its worth the stretch IMO.

Roberts value is high now... Will it be if he has a off year (no) ... Will it be if he is unhappy about the other move & becomes disgruntled (no)...Will the pain of possibly losing 100 games get to him (Yes)

[Stotle]

Respectfully, would you be more willing to entertain an offer of Colvin, Burke, Ceda, and Huseby? Four young guys (2 OF, 1 RP, 1 SP) with huge ceilings but question marks?

The way I see it, Roberts will likely get you players who are ML ready, or high ceiling... but not both. Guys who are ML ready and high ceiling are probably already starting for their respective teams. So if you aren't willing to take ML ready guys who are moderate upgrades over what you currently have, are you willing to take on high ceiling guys with big question marks, but who may be huge improvements over what you have in 3-4 years?

I think this is absolutely right, but you can get a high ceiling ML ready guy if he has no spot in his current organization. As long as the players involved seem to fit into some sort of plan for the future, I really am not that picky. Ideally, I think I'd like to get one very good player for Roberts that addresses a need, and one or two guys in HiA/AA with good upside. Roberts isn't going to land a top prospect that is already ML ready, generally. However, if you find a good young kid who doesn't have a position on his team and meets a need for BAL, you can get a nice package.

I have no problem with the value of Gallagher/Murton/Cedeno. In fact, I think it's pretty impressive. I just don't think it addresses a need for BAL, and that should be the most important part.

[Stotle]

Several folks jumped on you for your snide "are any of these players starting for you" remark, because as has been pointed out, that is completely irrelevant to this entire discussion.

My advice to you would be to quit while you're behind on this one.

You're wrong. If you trace back the comments, my use of "are any of these players starting for you" was part of the discussion where you said you liked the trade.

The point, which is absolutely true, is that CHN does not weaken their team by trading these pieces and strengthens themselves at 2b. I don't know a simpler way to put it. In fact, you made my point back to me by pointing to the Teixeira deal. Again I say, I do not miss Chicago at all. Good luck to you...

[Mackus]

The point, which is absolutely true, is that CHN does not weaken their team by trading these pieces and strengthens themselves at 2b.

They weaken their depth, thats for sure. Now if an OF gets hurt or Pineilla realizes Theriot is terrible they'll have to find a replacement rather than give the job to a solid backup like Murton or Cedeno.

And additionally, why does it matter if the trade is good or bad for Chicago? All that matters is if the trade helps us, which most of us think it clearly would.

[Stotle]

Actually Rob ... I believe what Stotle is saying is that he wants a stud 2B or SS prospect in return. The Orioles after the deals for Tejada , & Bedard (if it ever gets done) are missing a SS & 1B high end guy. Add Roberts & now we need a 2B.

What I dont think he gets is "Rome Wasn't Built in a Day" & we shouldn't expect the Orioles will get better in 1 season. Murton, Gallgher & whatever 2 of the other guys we could add would make us a better team. Is Cedeno a upgarde over LH ... He hasn't shown it yet but he could be. Considering he would be the 3rd or 4th guy its worth the stretch IMO.

Roberts value is high now... Will it be if he has a off year (no) ... Will it be if he is unhappy about the other move & becomes disgruntled (no)...Will the pain of possibly losing 100 games get to him (Yes)

This is the line of thinking I don't agree with. If this sort of reasoning held up, there would never be an excuse to wait to trade a talented players. Talented players can always have down years, talented players can always get injured and talented players can always grow frustrated with losing. By this reasoning, you are saying if you ever want to trade a talented player as part of a rebuild, you should take a decent package, even if it isn't what you need, because there's a good chance you'll never get a better offer.

This may be true in some instances, but to remove any sort of calculated risk seems off. Isn't it at least possible that BAL can do better? I think it's probable that a better fit can be found. That's all I've ever tried to say here.

[Stotle]

They weaken their depth, thats for sure. Now if an OF gets hurt or Pineilla realizes Theriot is terrible they'll have to find a replacement rather than give the job to a solid backup like Murton or Cedeno.

And additionally, why does it matter if the trade is good or bad for Chicago? All that matters is if the trade helps us, which most of us think it clearly would.

I was responding to the accusation that I was somehow knocking the Cubs players by pointing out the obvious reason for the Cubs liking the deal.

I'm fine being in the minority. I understand that everyon is excited about the value of the package. I don't think it helps with the rebuild, and I think Roberts is a good enough player that you should be able to shop him for a package that addresses specific needs.

[davearm]

You're wrong. If you trace back the comments, my use of "are any of these players starting for you" was part of the discussion where you said you liked the trade.

The point, which is absolutely true, is that CHN does not weaken their team by trading these pieces and strengthens themselves at 2b. I don't know a simpler way to put it. In fact, you made my point back to me by pointing to the Teixeira deal. Again I say, I do not miss Chicago at all. Good luck to you...

Tracing back the comments now per your suggestion... not seeing anyplace where I said I liked the trade, which allegedly precipitated your silly outburst.

But hey, you've been distorting the facts throughout, so I can't say I'm surprised.

[Roll Tide]

This is the line of thinking I don't agree with. If this sort of reasoning held up, there would never be an excuse to wait to trade a talented players. Talented players can always have down years, talented players can always get injured and talented players can always grow frustrated with losing. By this reasoning, you are saying if you ever want to trade a talented player as part of a rebuild, you should take a decent package, even if it isn't what you need, because there's a good chance you'll never get a better offer.

This may be true in some instances, but to remove any sort of calculated risk seems off. Isn't it at least possible that BAL can do better? I think it's probable that a better fit can be found. That's all I've ever tried to say here.

Murton & Gallagher are talented players... Roberts wont make much of a difference on this team. His value is high. No reason to wait ...A 4 player deal that include these guys as #1 & #2 is fair value & makes us better in the future.

Isn't it at least possible that BAL can do better?

I havent seen a rumor of a better deal

[Stotle]

Tracing back the comments now per your suggestion... not seeing anyplace where I said I liked the trade, which allegedly precipitated your silly outburst.

But hey, you've been distorting the facts throughout, so I can't say I'm surprised.

Post 160. No facts distorted. I've pointed out I think the Cubs have valuable pieces to move. I've said I don't think BAL is a good fit. Comments like the bolded above truly make you look ridiculous...

[Stotle]

Murton & Gallagher are talented players... Roberts wont make much of a difference on this team. His value is high. No reason to wait ...A 4 player deal that include these guys as #1 & #2 is fair value & makes us better in the future.

I havent seen a rumor of a better deal

Again, no dispute with the fact that they are "valuable players". No matter how many times you say it, they don't bring anything new to the rebuild. They just don't.

If the reported deal goes through, I sure hope you are right and I am wrong. I hope Gallagher is a #2 and Murton is a fixture in LF for the next five years. I'd love it. I don't think it's likely, but I really would like to be wrong. If Nelson or Lillibridge are moved in the next year and it isn't to BAL, I'll be pretty darn disappointed...

[Roll Tide]

Again, no dispute with the fact that they are "valuable players". No matter how many times you say it, they don't bring anything new to the rebuild. They just don't.

If the reported deal goes through, I sure hope you are right and I am wrong. I hope Gallagher is a #2 and Murton is a fixture in LF for the next five years. I'd love it. I don't think it's likely, but I really would like to be wrong. If Nelson or Lillibridge are moved in the next year and it isn't to BAL, I'll be pretty darn disappointed...

I think Lillibridge could be had for Sherrill/Walker/Bradford & a minor league pitcher from our pile.

Dont know about Nelson... I would try to pry Bignac....

If the O's could squeeze Chen out of the Bedard deal & Play Cedeno at SS this year. He actually has enough ceiling to improve. And he will hit more than 3 EBH's this year.

[hefalumps]

I know there's been a number of threads dealing with Roberts, the Cubs, and proposed scenarios, but I was trying to figure out a way to deal Roberts - our last valuable veteran trading chip - along with some other upside players to the Cubs to shore up some of our holes for 2008 and beyond. With the way this Bedard trade has gone, I can't imagine the Orioles pulling off too many more major rebuilding deals this year, so the idea of the O's getting something from the Cubs and then "flipping" this piece to fill the SS hole and "flipping" that piece to fill another hole - well, it either won't happen or will take until 2009. It'd be nice if we could just get our last injection of rebuilding adrenaline from the Cubs.

So far the names I've heard popping up in different scenarios are Pie (long shot), Gallagher, Murton, Patterson, and Cedeno. Also hear Marshall or Marquis occasionally.

Now, I don't see how we need Murton or Pie with our current OF of Payton/Scott, Jones (assuming Bedard trade goes through), and Markakis along with the number of reserve OFs we have and Reimond waiting in the wings. So unless we're planning on asking Jones to shift back to SS/2B (I doubt) or dealing Scott, it seems like we'll have a very crowded OF and a very sparse IF even if we could swap Roberts for Pie.

So what about a deal involving some combination of Roberts, Scott, and Reimond for some combination of Pie, Gallagher, E. Patterson, Cedeno, and Marshall/Marquis? Personally, I don't have that high an opinion of Pie and I'm a big Roberts fan, so I'm not sure I'd be an advocate of a deal involving both Roberts and Scott/Reimond, but I think this deal could make some sense for us. We could get back some pitchers, some servicable IFs to fill our 2B/SS hole, and another young hot shot OFer in Pie. Think of it:

C Hernandez (keeping it warm for Weiters)

1B Millar/Huff (keeping it warm for Brandon Snyder or Tex)

2B E. Patterson (could turn out to be fairly decent)

SS R. Cedeno (we'd need to upgrade eventually or move Jones here)

3B Mora/Moore (keeping it warm for Rowell)

LF Pie

CF Ad. Jones

RF Markakis

SP Guthrie, Loewen, Cabrera, Gallagher/Marshall/Marquis, Patton/Albers/Olson/Penn/Liz

RP The usual suspects

CL Sherrill

So what do you think - would throwing in Reimond, Scott, or both in with Roberts make the Cubs more willing to part with Pie? Would we even want to do that? I'm curious what people's thoughts are. Are they any good scenarios involving this group of players that would make sense for both sides?

[Roll Tide]

This should be included in the Roberts must go thread or the insider says no to Roberts trade ...

Join the conversation there!!!!

[Stotle]

I know there's been a number of threads dealing with Roberts, the Cubs, and proposed scenarios, but I was trying to figure out a way to deal Roberts - our last valuable veteran trading chip - along with some other upside players to the Cubs to shore up some of our holes for 2008 and beyond. With the way this Bedard trade has gone, I can't imagine the Orioles pulling off too many more major rebuilding deals this year, so the idea of the O's getting something from the Cubs and then "flipping" this piece to fill the SS hole and "flipping" that piece to fill another hole - well, it either won't happen or will take until 2009. It'd be nice if we could just get our last injection of rebuilding adrenaline from the Cubs.

So far the names I've heard popping up in different scenarios are Pie (long shot), Gallagher, Murton, Patterson, and Cedeno. Also hear Marshall or Marquis occasionally.

Now, I don't see how we need Murton or Pie with our current OF of Payton/Scott, Jones (assuming Bedard trade goes through), and Markakis along with the number of reserve OFs we have and Reimond waiting in the wings. So unless we're planning on asking Jones to shift back to SS/2B (I doubt) or dealing Scott, it seems like we'll have a very crowded OF and a very sparse IF even if we could swap Roberts for Pie.

So what about a deal involving some combination of Roberts, Scott, and Reimond for some combination of Pie, Gallagher, E. Patterson, Cedeno, and Marshall/Marquis? Personally, I don't have that high an opinion of Pie and I'm a big Roberts fan, so I'm not sure I'd be an advocate of a deal involving both Roberts and Scott/Reimond, but I think this deal could make some sense for us. We could get back some pitchers, some servicable IFs to fill our 2B/SS hole, and another young hot shot OFer in Pie. Think of it:

C Hernandez (keeping it warm for Weiters)

1B Millar/Huff (keeping it warm for Brandon Snyder or Tex)

2B E. Patterson (could turn out to be fairly decent)

SS R. Cedeno (we'd need to upgrade eventually or move Jones here)

3B Mora/Moore (keeping it warm for Rowell)

LF Pie

CF Ad. Jones

RF Markakis

SP Guthrie, Loewen, Cabrera, Gallagher/Marshall/Marquis, Patton/Albers/Olson/Penn/Liz

RP The usual suspects

CL Sherrill

So what do you think - would throwing in Reimond, Scott, or both in with Roberts make the Cubs more willing to part with Pie? Would we even want to do that? I'm curious what people's thoughts are. Are they any good scenarios involving this group of players that would make sense for both sides?

No. They have Fukudome and Soriano at the corners. They need a CF. They have Murton already and don't need Reimold.