What does Nick's departure say to the other players who we may want to retain?

[Nevermore]

Cruz was a great teammate. There was no shock expressed that he left. The difference. Nick has been here for 8 yeas and Cruz for one. It's not about who was a better player and a better teammate. The shock is that he was here for so long and now he's gone. Everyone expected him back, even the ones who didn't necessarily want him back. If the team wins, it's no big deal. If the team loses and Markakis does well in Atlanta, we'll never hear the end of it.

My understanding is that the Markakis deal was almost wrapped up at 4 years, just ironing out a few details. Os management didn't even give Nick a QO because they figured that one wasn't necessary. But then Os management got cold feet, taking the 4 years off the table and offering only 3 years. The claim was that Nick once had a herniated disk in his neck. Nick has had that herniated disk for many years and no one mentioned it, even during the first part of the negotiations. All of a sudden, Nick's neck becomes a concern and the 4th year is taken off the table. Basically, the message from Os management changed, telling Nick to take a hike. It's sad. And the Os won't even get a draft pick.

[Can_of_corn]

I'm unclear about who you mean when you say the O's treated him well. I assume you mean O's management? That may be true but I think it's much more than that. I think it's the culture Buck has developed and more importantly his relationship with his teammates. The Orioles had something special going on in that clubhouse. You heard it from the new players when they arrived and you heard it from the veterans. Part of what Hardy found so special about the O's when he signed this summer was eroded yesterday when Nick left.

I think that is wholly speculation on your part.

I find it very hard to believe that the presence or absence of a single player would cause another player to have reconsidered signing an extension.

[mdbdotcom]

Why Jones might be upset.

"I was thinking about that night and how unbelievably happy they were. When you get your noses bloodied together and more importantly you get it rubbed in it together, there's a real" partnership, manager Buck Showalter said about Markakis and Jones. "They were like two kids winning the Little League state championship. I got so much joy out of seeing how excited they were."

No players have been with the major league club longer than the duo. Markakis, 30, was the Orioles' first-round pick in 2003 and made the majors on Opening Day 2006. Jones, 29, joined him two seasons later in the spring of 2008 after he was dealt to the Orioles by the Seattle Mariners in the trade for Erik Bedard.

They have played 960 games together, sixth-most by any current pair of active teammates in baseball, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. Only one pair of outfielders is ahead of them: the Los Angeles Dodgers' Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier, who have played together in 986 games.

http://www.yorkdispatch.com/sports/ci_26642000/together-since-2008-adam-jones-and-nick-markakis

Of course he's upset. He was upset when Jim Johnson was traded. On the first day of spring training he will start developing a new relationship with the new right fielder. He'll be fine.

[33rdst]

Cruz was a great teammate. There was no shock expressed that he left. The difference. Nick has been here for 8 yeas and Cruz for one. It's not about who was a better player and a better teammate. The shock is that he was here for so long and now he's gone. Everyone expected him back, even the ones who didn't necessarily want him back. If the team wins, it's no big deal. If the team loses and Markakis does well in Atlanta, we'll never hear the end of it.

Of course there was no shock when Cruz left it was almost expected that he would. Nick was the cornerstone player. He was the longest tenured. Highly respected. He lived here. He was open about his desire to stay. I think you're wrong. If the team wins it may lesson the blow of Nick's departure but it will remain a big deal for a lot of people for as long as they are O's fans.

[Bahama O's Fan]

This means nothing. We resign those that we feel are worth the contract. Reynolds-gone, McLouth-gone, Roberts-gone. Jones-extension, Hardy-extension. I think Dan is about getting the most production with the finances made available to him. Like I said last offseason about JJ-we can replicate the same results for a lot less. It allowed us to get Cruz. We can replicate what Nick would do in RF over the next four years for a lot less.

[TouchemAll]

That's why they didn't wait on Hardy. But don't lay it all on the team. When players hit free agency they are eager to find out what they are "really worth" in a competitive marketplace. It's very difficult for any team to keep its own players once they hit free agency. How many good players don't move on?

Yep look at the Yankee's they lost Cano I didn't think that was going to happen.

[Going Underground]

Of course he's upset. He was upset when Jim Johnson was traded. On the first day of spring training he will start developing a new relationship with the new right fielder. He'll be fine.

Yup. Players understand it is a business. That is way I don't understand when a fan says a player should give a hometown discount. It is a money business.

[33rdst]

I think that is wholly speculation on your part.

I find it very hard to believe that the presence or absence of a single player would cause another player to have reconsidered signing an extension.

Well of course it's speculation on my part. As is your unwillingness to believe that nick's departure could have effected Hardy's decision.

[TouchemAll]

I think that is wholly speculation on your part.

I find it very hard to believe that the presence or absence of a single player would cause another player to have reconsidered signing an extension.

I agree like Buck says when a player says its not about the $$$

IT'S ABOUT THE $$$ bottom line baby.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I'm unclear about who you mean when you say the O's treated him well. I assume you mean O's management? That may be true but I think it's much more than that. I think it's the culture Buck has developed and more importantly his relationship with his teammates. The Orioles had something special going on in that clubhouse. You heard it from the new players when they arrived and you heard it from the veterans. Part of what Hardy found so special about the O's when he signed this summer was eroded yesterday when Nick left.

When Jim Johnson was dumped, the players were upset and we heard endless nonsense about how poor the Orioles handled it. Same stuff with mark Reynolds. Even with Roberts. How bad this was for the team and clubhouse etc. We also head endless nonsense about the O's screwing Hardy in negotiations, yet he ended up signing with us and was thrilled about. You can't make everybody happy. In the end it's a business, not Club Med.

If we win everybody will be happy. Letting Nick walk was a baseball decision that most people will agree will likely keep us competitive (at least in the longer term).

[Frobby]

It felt like it. I don't know. Maybe I am the only one who sees it that way.

There are a few ways to look at it. When the deal was signed, I thought it was a very good deal for the Orioles, based on Nick's career arc to that point in time. He was very fair to the Orioles in that negotiation given the circumstances: (1) he was a 24-year old stud, and (2) the team stank and it was going to take a while to turn things around. As it turned out, his career did not develop as it appeared it would, and he was more of a solid, reliable pro than a genuine star. So in hindsight, I'd say he was overpaid on that deal, especially if you consider that he would not have been receiving his full free-market value in the first three years of the deal while he was arbitration eligible.

All in all, I don't think any of that should have had much bearing on these negotiations. The Orioles didn't "owe" Markakis an overly generous deal in exchange for past services rendered at a discount, and Markakis didn't "owe" the Orioles a discount this time because he underperformed his last deal by a bit. I don't fault anyone this time around. I'm just sad the two sides couldn't reach an agreement.

[Nevermore]

That's your understanding? What's your conclusion? You make it sound as though the O's brought up the neck so they could back out of the deal. What is your take on that? Why?

That's what I believe, though I realize that I am speculating. Os mangement has a history of letting free agents walk. Nick's neck wasn't an issue until Os management decided to make it an issue or rather an excuse to take the 4th year off the table and let him go.

[TouchemAll]

There are a few ways to look at it. When the deal was signed, I thought it was a very good deal for the Orioles, based on Nick's career arc to that point in time. He was very fair to the Orioles in that negotiation given the circumstances: (1) he was a 24-year old stud, and (2) the team stank and it was going to take a while to turn things around. As it turned out, his career did not develop as it appeared it would, and he was more of a solid, reliable pro than a genuine star. So in hindsight, I'd say he was overpaid on that deal, especially if you consider that he would not have been receiving his full free-market value in the first three years of the deal while he was arbitration eligible.

All in all, I don't think any of that should have had much bearing on these negotiations. The Orioles didn't "owe" Markakis an overly generous deal in exchange for past services rendered at a discount, and Markakis didn't "owe" the Orioles a discount this time because he underperformed his last deal by a bit. I don't fault anyone this time around. I'm just sad the two sides couldn't reach an agreement.

Excellent well said :thumbsup1:

[Frobby]

When Jim Johnson was dumped, the players were upset and we heard endless nonsense about how poor the Orioles handled it. Same stuff with mark Reynolds. Even with Roberts. How bad this was for the team and clubhouse etc. We also head endless nonsense about the O's screwing Hardy in negotiations, yet he ended up signing with us and was thrilled about. You can't make everybody happy. In the end it's a business, not Club Med.

If we win everybody will be happy. Letting Nick walk was a baseball decision that most people will agree will likely keep us competitive (at least in the longer term).

Fair enough. I do think Nick occupied a different spot than Johnson, Reynolds, or Roberts, and his departure has a bigger effect on the clubhouse than those others. I'm not suggesting it's catastrophic to this year's success or failure, but in business there is a correlation between productivity and a sense of loyalty and interconectedness. I certainly see it in my job.

[mdbdotcom]

Fair enough. I do think Nick occupied a different spot than Johnson, Reynolds, or Roberts, and his departure has a bigger affect on the clubhouse than those others. I'm not suggesting it's catastrophic to this year's success or failure, but there is an interconnection between productivity and a sense of loyalty and interconectedness. I certainly see it in my job.

Loyalty is a two-way street. They gave him a good offer. He could have accepted it. Most free agents don't re-sign with their team. Nick didn't either.