TT: The Orioles should let Duquette walk

[SteveO]

Short sighted? No, I'm not championing my point being short sighted. I'm fully aware of the delicate system that is in place. And I don't care if it happened with the Ravens or the Orioles, the problem is this: contracts exist for a reason. If a promotion is out there? Tough cookies. Deal with it unless your owner says otherwise. If it applies to players it should apply to management.

You have 4 years remaining on your contract. You brought others into the organization. And now you just want to sashay over to another organization in the same division most likely for little compensation to the owner of your contract? All because it's a promotion? No, that's not how it should work.

That'd be like a relief pitcher making $4mil/year under contract for 4 years wanting to jump ship to another organization willing to give him $10mil/year to start for them. No. You have a contract. Either you're traded for appropriate compensation or you're staying.

Its two different systems always has been and always will be.

When comparing players to management and executives your comparing two completely different types of contracts. One is collectively bargained the other not

If you want to see executives and coaches held to the same rigidness that players are contractually, your going to be waiting an awfully long time. There is no way those who run the game are going to limit their job opportunities by making it so they cannot accept promotions. Its not going to happen now or 10 yrs from now.

[Number5]

Its two different systems always has been and always will be.

When comparing players to management and executives your comparing two completely different types of contracts. One is collectively bargained the other not

If you want to see executives and coaches held to the same rigidness that players are contractually, your going to be waiting an awfully long time. There is no way those who run the game are going to limit their job opportunities by making it so they cannot accept promotions. Its not going to happen now or 10 yrs from now.

You are under a misconception here. General managers are not owners. They most certainly do not run the game. DD is definitely bound by his contract.

[Prayin4Reign]

I've got no issue with DD having interest in the opportunity if it is as big of a step up as it originally appeared. I agree that people need to be granted opportunities to better themselves. I have never stood in the way of a promotion of an employee outside my department. However, I have never been materially damaged or had a situation where I had committed guaranteed money via a signed contract either. The employee was always going somewhere internal to the company so we were all on the same side.

This situation is different. DD would be going to a direct competitor. He is under long term contract. PGA is materially damaged if he leaves today. You allow for that when you say we need to be compensated so I think we are all on the same page. The problem is what do you do if the BJ are not willing to offer adequate compensation? This appears to be the issue to me. Now, you want to give DD the opportunity, but you can't do it and not leave yourself materially worse off.

Let's face it. This Ed Rogers guy did something really stupid. He went after something without first realizing the cost and agreeing to pay that cost. Now, it appears he isn't willing to pay the cost. That is just freaking wrong when the "something" was under contract to a competitor.

The proper way to do this would have been to reach out to PGA before anything was leaked and determine a compensation range IF DD was hired. That was step one in this sort of process. The way it has been done is just wrong on all levels.

I often agree with your posts, I agree with a lot of what you have to say here. Can this be cleaned up with a press conference and a promotion? Why isn't Dan President of Baseball Operations? Andy was. Maybe that's just too simple of a fix. Maybe Angelos is p'od at the situation and wouldn't allow that to happen any way now.

We don't know what goes on behind closed doors. We don't know if Dan is happy with the job or not. It appears that DD has been able to operate with as much authority if not more than AM. But we don't know that for a fact. If the Angelos family values Dan and they want to keep him and put this whole mess to bed, bump him up to President and give him a raise. But, if this is a case where there's turmoil lurking in the background and there have been issues going on behind the scenes for awhile, get a prospect or two and move on.

[SteveO]

You are under a misconception here. General managers are not owners. They most certainly do not run the game. DD is definitely bound by his contract.

Your jumping into a conversation that your not aware the entire scope of. We are not just talking about GM's

LookitsPuck thinks that all these guys should be forced to honor their contracts regardless of sport. I pointed out that Coolbaugh who is our new hitting coach was under contract (Minor league hitting coordinator) with the Rangers, they allowed us to interview and promote him to our hitting coach. John Harbaugh was contractually the Special Teams Coach for the Eagles when the Ravens hired him.

I was simply stating it will be a cold day in hell when guys are not allowed to move and interview for promotions. Fans can hate it all they want but those who run the game owners and to some extent other high ranking FO staff such as GM's, Team Presidents etc want the ability to find young dynamic talent who can save their collective butts when they suck. Simple as that.

That part is not going change, it will never change. Scott Coolbaugh was bound by his contract also.....the Rangers allowed him to interview and accept the position because that is how the system works . If Toronto wanted DD to be their president they should have done it the proper way and at the proper time and then it would have been on the Orioles to honor the code. Instead they played games and essentially tampered IMO. In the end though they will likely get what they want.

[Frobby]

Buck is the main reason for the "culture change" around the whole organization. Saying that, Duquette has done a ton in acquiring the right players that have allowed the Orioles to have three winning seasons and two playoff appearances. Despite their differences, they have found a way to make this work and in a perfect world we would not be having this conversation about Duquette potentially moving on.

I have the feeling that whatever tension exists, is more between certain members of the staff than it is between Dan and Buck personally. Buck and Dan seem to be on the same page most of the time, and in daily communication over player moves.

I note that the head of player development, Brian Graham, pre-dates both Dan and Buck. So do a number of the MiL managers and coaches, though certainly not all of them. And some guys like Ron Johnson had ties to Dan before coming here, but Buck seems to have developed a close relationship. So, I don't think it is quite as simple as "Dan's guys" vs. "Buck's guys." It's some of the guys who were here already, and maybe a few other guys who Buck brought in, vs. some of Dan's guys. At least, that's what seems likely to me, pending any further input from you, though I'm sure you prefer not to get too specific with names.

[Prayin4Reign]

I have never seen a conflict in applying my personal code of ethics to business situations. That's allowed me to build and maintain a clientele over decades and acquire the sort of reputation that made new clients possible. Part of the process has been the necessity (on dozens of occasions over the years) to turn down more attractive opportunities to satisfy existing obligations. That's what "it's just business" means to me. Contract or no contract.

Are you saying that the Orioles organization can't provide Duquette room for growth and opportunity for over the next four years?

The fact that Dan might be dissatisfied with his current position is unfortunate if true but that remains to be seen. For Dan Duquette to use his alleged unhappiness as a lever to get out of a contract would be about the most unprofessional thing he could do under this particular set of circumstances. I hope that's not what's going on, because based on what we currently know, Peter Angelos deserves better. It would be especially unfortunate in light of the fact that DD did not negotiate an out clause for situations like this when he had the opportunity. It's not like this is the first time this issue has come up in major league baseball. If that had been the case then there would be no need to ponder what "logical ebb and flow" might possibly mean in the context of an employment contract vetted by a highly accomplished and skilled attorney.

It sounds like you run a good business and you've been rewarded for that.

As far as your question?do I not think the Orioles can provide Duquette room for growth and opportunity. In a perfect world yes. It appears that DD has been given authority to do what he pleases, but I'm always hesitant to fully believe that. I don't want to make this about Peter Angelos but his reputation does get in the way a bit in order to give you a resounding YES.

Aside from that your take is immensely more rigid than mine. The one area where I will agree with you is that DD should have negotiated a 10-day opt out at the end of each year. But we both probably know why that didn't happen.

[TouchemAll]

I've kind of stayed out of this for a few reasons, but what the hell, here's my take.

I like and respect Dan Duquette as the GM here and I think he's a big part of our success. I like the fact that he's not afraid to go for it and is willing to move minor league prospects for major league ready talent in an attempt to win year in and year out, not just try to play .500 baseball while hoping every prospect pans out. In addition, I agree with those who say he's under contract and the last time I checked Duquette would expect the Orioles to honor their commitments so I think he should honor his commitment. Afterall, no one forced him to sign that extension.

Now, saying all of that, I'm at the point that it might be best for all parties if Angelos relents and allows Duquette to leave as long as the Orioles receive some kind of significant return from the Blue Jays. Now don't get me wrong, I'd be lying if I didn't want to stick it to the Blue Jays for how they've gone about this especially when you consider the timing of them leaking their interest at the start of the winter meetings. That's just underhanded and although Duquette historically has done very little of significance at the winter meetings while at the Orioles helm, we have no idea how that has affected things this winter. Afterall, if I'm a perspective player and I just watched Duquette allow two of his outfielders to walk out the door and there are rumors about him leaving the organization, maybe I think twice.

Despite this, here's why I think it might be best if he's allowed to leave. First, as much as I respect him for his baseball knowledge, he's not irreplaceable. I think back to when he was hired and no one wanted to come here and work for Angelos and how Angelos decided to take a chance on a guy who had been out of organized baseball. That worked out pretty well. Either way, there are quality baseball men in and out of this organization who just need a chance to show they can lead an organization.

Secondly, speaking of leading an organization, let's not pull any punches. Various sources within the organization have told me there are factions within the warehouse that almost goes back to the Joe Jordan - Dave Stockstill wars. From what I understand, you are either a Duquette guy or a Buck guy. That doesn't mean they don't work together necessarily, but let's not act like the organization is full of harmony. In fact, there's a reason leaks from within the organization have been coming out that some within the organization might not be upset to see Duquette go.

Third, as much as Duquette has done a great job with trying to find talent from all sources, he's a bit of a control freak when it comes to hiring new talent into the organization and doesn't allow others to build their staffs as they see fit. In the minors, there is no cohesion of effort between the coordinators and the local affiliate staffs and players are getting conflicting advice from one level to another or even at the same level when a coordinator shows up out of nowhere and starts tinkering.

From what I was told, one of the problems is that certain guys are Duquette guys and have free reign to do what they want. There has also been some concerns expressed about how hard some of those guys work and if they are causing more problems then they are helping. Considering the lack of development within the system the last few years, it's hard to argue this lack of cohesion has not had a negative affect.

Lastly, why do the Orioles want to keep a guy who wants to leave? Sure, you may point out that Duquette has never said he wants to leave publicly, but what GM doesn't come out and immediately squash these rumors if he wasn't interested? Buck has helped instill a team philosophy throughout the organization. He wants players to be attached to the past, the city and the fans, but what does it say when the GM wants to be elsewhere?

So at the end of the day, I'd like to see the Blue Jays have to pay for poaching the Orioles GM, but I also think it's best for all if Angelos allows it to happen. The organization can only be at it's best when all parties are moving forward in the same manner. The Orioles are lucky to have a guy like Buck Showalter who understands the team concept and it's why so many guys are so loyal to Buck and vice versa. The Orioles deserve a GM with the same mentality.

Well said, I agree on all your points! The longer this goes the WORSE it's going to get for the O's.

[24fps]

It sounds like you run a good business and you've been rewarded for that.

As far as your question?do I not think the Orioles can provide Duquette room for growth and opportunity. In a perfect world yes. It appears that DD has been given authority to do what he pleases, but I'm always hesitant to fully believe that. I don't want to make this about Peter Angelos but his reputation does get in the way a bit in order to give you a resounding YES.

Aside from that your take is immensely more rigid than mine. The one area where I will agree with you is that DD should have negotiated a 10-day opt out at the end of each year. But we both probably know why that didn't happen.

It's fair to say my take on this is pretty rigid. Life and business have taught me that loyalty and principled behavior is rewarded and the possibility that DD is repaying a magnificent opportunity to resurrect his career by acting this way at this stage of the Orioles' turnaround doesn't sit well with me at all. But something about the story up to now also tells me that a great deal has yet to come out. Until then I'm going to resist the impulse to draw too many conclusions about facts and motive.

It's past time for the remaining questions to be cleared up, Orioles fans deserve that much. Whether it's Duquette or PA who's responsible for the wall of silence, from the standpoint of public perception the situation is beginning to fester and IMO they should take steps to quickly end that.

[webbrick2010]

I suspect it will come down to the usual, Angelos has behaved in some manner that has made DD loathe to stay with the O's. Really should it surprise anyone if PA has driven away another competent baseball guy.

[atomic]

I suspect it will come down to the usual, Angelos has behaved in some manner that has made DD loathe to stay with the O's. Really should it surprise anyone if PA has driven away another competent baseball guy.

I say just make Brady the GM. I don't want to go through another drawn out long process where everyone in baseball turns us down for the GM job and we have to dig someone up who has been out of baseball for a decade.

Actually when we thought we had turned the corner from embarrassment and had a solid team in place to guide us for years to come this happens.

[Prayin4Reign]

It's fair to say my take on this is pretty rigid. Life and business have taught me that loyalty and principled behavior is rewarded and the possibility that DD is repaying a magnificent opportunity to resurrect his career by acting this way at this stage of the Orioles' turnaround doesn't sit well with me at all. But something about the story up to now also tells me that a great deal has yet to come out. Until then I'm going to resist the impulse to draw too many conclusions about facts and motive.

It's past time for the remaining questions to be cleared up, Orioles fans deserve that much. Whether it's Duquette or PA who's responsible for the wall of silence, from the standpoint of public perception the situation is beginning to fester and IMO they should take steps to quickly end that.

And I concur.

[spiritof66]

I liked Brady Anderson a lot as an Oriole, and from what little I know he has been helpful in working with players during the off-season and ST. But what has he done, or what qualities has he shown, that suggest he would be a capable general manager in the very challenging competitive environment in which the Orioles operate? What are his qualifications in terms of heading up an off-field organization, making decisions about player and front-office personnel, talent assessment, salary negotiations, understanding and making appropriate use of advanced statistics, making trades, and assembling a roster largely through player development and on-the-cheap talent acquisition? I'm not saying that Brady couldn't do these things very well, but I have no reason to think he could. And when you look around at most of the successful general managers in the last few years, their backgrounds don't look like Brady's.

I have understood, but maybe I've misunderstood, that one of the reasons why the BJs' timing in the Duquette Affair is widely thought to be so disruptive for the Orioles is that there is no strong internal candidate to succeed Duquette as GM -- with the possible exception of the guy who is already busy managing the team.

[WEAVERMAN]

This assertion sounds like you are being facetious (and I hope that you are.)

When Arrieta was traded in July of 2013, he had an E.R.A. of 7.23, and a W.H.I.P. of 1.775.

For his entire career with the Orioles (2010-2013), Arrieta's E.R.A. rose each season, from 4.66 in 2010 to 5.05 in 2011, to 6.20 in 2012, to 7.23 in 2013.

If you were joking, OK.

If you WERE NOT joking, then what exactly was Duquette supposed to get back in a trade for a pitcher with these numbers?

I agree Patrick.

[byrdz]

I've got no issue with DD having interest in the opportunity if it is as big of a step up as it originally appeared. I agree that people need to be granted opportunities to better themselves. I have never stood in the way of a promotion of an employee outside my department. However, I have never been materially damaged or had a situation where I had committed guaranteed money via a signed contract either. The employee was always going somewhere internal to the company so we were all on the same side.

This situation is different. DD would be going to a direct competitor. He is under long term contract. PGA is materially damaged if he leaves today. You allow for that when you say we need to be compensated so I think we are all on the same page. The problem is what do you do if the BJ are not willing to offer adequate compensation? This appears to be the issue to me. Now, you want to give DD the opportunity, but you can't do it and not leave yourself materially worse off.

Let's face it. This Ed Rogers guy did something really stupid. He went after something without first realizing the cost and agreeing to pay that cost. Now, it appears he isn't willing to pay the cost. That is just freaking wrong when the "something" was under contract to a competitor.

The proper way to do this would have been to reach out to PGA before anything was leaked and determine a compensation range IF DD was hired. That was step one in this sort of process. The way it has been done is just wrong on all levels.

Good post!! I guess what you're saying is handle your business professionally and maybe things go your way. But when you come out the gates acting like a child you should be expect to be treated like one.

[McLovin]

I just don't get what the hell the O's are doing. Who cares if he goes to a division rival. I'm OK with Toronto having and edge in Indy League signings and Rule V drafting.

All they are doing is showing that they will hold you back from career opportunities. I'm sure people will still want the job, but it's bad business.

It's comical watching how the Ravens deal with similar drama.