TT: The Orioles should let Duquette walk

[24fps]

The multitude of ways in which contracts are eventually broken exisist because of the rigidity of philosophies like the one your putting forth.....ask Frank Wren :laughlol:

Ahhh yes, the notion of contracts as window dressing to be strategically discarded by the morally superior. And on occasion by the momentarily inconvenienced. How utterly......utterly.....modern.

[SteveO]

Don't sign a contract if you're not going to honour it. I hate this bs about it "being a promotion, so let him have it." No, screw that. The only way you should get out of a contract is if the owner of said contract allows you to do so, not stupid BS unwritten (vaguely written) rule. I hate it in the NFL, and I hate it in MLB. And anywhere else.

Sorry that is just short sighted. John Harbaugh was under contract with the Eagles when we hired him, he was allowed to interview because it was a promotion. I would say that worked out pretty well for us in that respect. Scott Coolbaugh whom we just hired to be our hitting coach was under contract with the Rangers as their minor league hitting coordinator. They allowed the Orioles to interview him since it was a "promotion". This is just common practice in all of sports. Period the end. There is no reason to hold back peoples careers. Everyone who hires into those contracts once had a contract like that, they know and understand how hard it is to get the opportunities that get you were they are. That's why it is almost universally accepted. BTW this is not just a MLB or NFL thing. Many, many business have the same philosophy.

It sucks when you lose guys, its great if you get one that helps. In the case of DD, my issue is not with him being offered a promotion, its about the timing and how it played out in the media rather than normal channels.

[SteveO]

Ahhh yes, the notion of contracts as window dressing to be strategically discarded by the morally superior. And on occasion by the momentarily inconvenienced. How utterly......utterly.....modern.

In many ways I agree with you. It is a modern creation and a disturbing one to some degree.

The ultimate irony of it is that this notion of " notion of contracts as window dressing to be strategically discarded by the morally superior" was propagated by the very people who most frequently write contracts, the business and corporate world. At some point the idea and pursuit of profit outweighed the moral responsibility to honor their contractual responsibilities. If a contract was standing in the way of another contract that was somehow more profitable, simply find a way to break the contract in the way. so as to accept the new and maximize profit.

Its funny that the death of contracts really came at the hand of the very entities that created the notion....business.

[Nevermore]

The next to the last paragraph captures my sentiment. After what has happened over the past two months how can Dan Duquette stand in front of his season ticket holders at fanfast and speak with any sense of credibility regarding the greatness of the Orioles past, his commitment to the Oriole way, and his affection for the Orioles, the fans or the city? In contrast, since he stepped into the clubhouse Buck has not only preached about the need to make a commitment to the Orioles past,present and future, he has practiced it. His actions have always reflected this commitment, whether it was involvement with community, activily seeking out and engaging directly with past oriole players or the sincere and genuine appreciation he has shown for the support of the fan base. Buck has tried to become an Oriole and succeeded. Dan either doesn't get this or choses not to. Simply put we're a stop on his career path.

Thanks, my sentiments exactly. I am a huge Buck fan. He takes care of his players, tries to help them, and cares about the Orioles past and present. As for Duquette, I agree. I'm going to Fanfest and I don't know if or when DD plans to appear. But how can he, with a straight face, talk about his committment to the Os when he won't even attempt to quash the DD-to-the Blue Jays rumors? I don't blame DD for wanting to advance his career, but I want someone in there who is committed to the Orioles, their players, their fans, and the Baltimore metropolitan area (I'm from Columbia). I don't want someone who is using the Orioles as a career step toward something greater. Especially when an organization like the Blue Jays organization pulls a stunt like what they have been doing this off season. Maybe I'm being naive, but I want someone who would openly and publically refuse to engage in what the Blue Jays are doing. I don't want someone who avoids the subject whenever a member of the press asks him about his wants as far as staying with the Os and honoring his contract. How can I completely believe DD if and when he makes a move for the Os. Especially with a player like Colby Rasmus, who currently plays for the Jays. Will DD try to help the Os or the Jays? I'm sure that publically, he would want to help the Os, but the conflict of interest is enormous. Let the Jays have him, but demand substantial compensation.

[VeveJones007]

Don't sign a contract if you're not going to honour it. I hate this bs about it "being a promotion, so let him have it." No, screw that. The only way you should get out of a contract is if the owner of said contract allows you to do so, not stupid BS unwritten (vaguely written) rule. I hate it in the NFL, and I hate it in MLB. And anywhere else.

PA will let Toronto have DD if they pay the price. This is just hardball negotiations. PA has all the leverage since MLB can't force his hand, especially with the MASN dispute in court. MLB would shoot themselves in the foot if they worked too hard to force DD to Toronto.

[soxhotcorner14]

I've kind of stayed out of this for a few reasons, but what the hell, here's my take.

I like and respect Dan Duquette as the GM here and I think he's a big part of our success. I like the fact that he's not afraid to go for it and is willing to move minor league prospects for major league ready talent in an attempt to win year in and year out, not just try to play .500 baseball while hoping every prospect pans out. In addition, I agree with those who say he's under contract and the last time I checked Duquette would expect the Orioles to honor their commitments so I think he should honor his commitment. Afterall, no one forced him to sign that extension.

Now, saying all of that, I'm at the point that it might be best for all parties if Angelos relents and allows Duquette to leave as long as the Orioles receive some kind of significant return from the Blue Jays. Now don't get me wrong, I'd be lying if I didn't want to stick it to the Blue Jays for how they've gone about this especially when you consider the timing of them leaking their interest at the start of the winter meetings. That's just underhanded and although Duquette historically has done very little of significance at the winter meetings while at the Orioles helm, we have no idea how that has affected things this winter. Afterall, if I'm a perspective player and I just watched Duquette allow two of his outfielders to walk out the door and there are rumors about him leaving the organization, maybe I think twice.

Despite this, here's why I think it might be best if he's allowed to leave. First, as much as I respect him for his baseball knowledge, he's not irreplaceable. I think back to when he was hired and no one wanted to come here and work for Angelos and how Angelos decided to take a chance on a guy who had been out of organized baseball. That worked out pretty well. Either way, there are quality baseball men in and out of this organization who just need a chance to show they can lead an organization.

Secondly, speaking of leading an organization, let's not pull any punches. Various sources within the organization have told me there are factions within the warehouse that almost goes back to the Joe Jordan - Dave Stockstill wars. From what I understand, you are either a Duquette guy or a Buck guy. That doesn't mean they don't work together necessarily, but let's not act like the organization is full of harmony. In fact, there's a reason leaks from within the organization have been coming out that some within the organization might not be upset to see Duquette go.

Third, as much as Duquette has done a great job with trying to find talent from all sources, he's a bit of a control freak when it comes to hiring new talent into the organization and doesn't allow others to build their staffs as they see fit. In the minors, there is no cohesion of effort between the coordinators and the local affiliate staffs and players are getting conflicting advice from one level to another or even at the same level when a coordinator shows up out of nowhere and starts tinkering.

From what I was told, one of the problems is that certain guys are Duquette guys and have free reign to do what they want. There has also been some concerns expressed about how hard some of those guys work and if they are causing more problems then they are helping. Considering the lack of development within the system the last few years, it's hard to argue this lack of cohesion has not had a negative affect.

Lastly, why do the Orioles want to keep a guy who wants to leave? Sure, you may point out that Duquette has never said he wants to leave publicly, but what GM doesn't come out and immediately squash these rumors if he wasn't interested? Buck has helped instill a team philosophy throughout the organization. He wants players to be attached to the past, the city and the fans, but what does it say when the GM wants to be elsewhere?

So at the end of the day, I'd like to see the Blue Jays have to pay for poaching the Orioles GM, but I also think it's best for all if Angelos allows it to happen. The organization can only be at it's best when all parties are moving forward in the same manner. The Orioles are lucky to have a guy like Buck Showalter who understands the team concept and it's why so many guys are so loyal to Buck and vice versa. The Orioles deserve a GM with the same mentality.

This sounds eerily familiar.... I saw the same thing happen when I played for Duq.

[Prayin4Reign]

Contracts exist because of philosophies like yours.

Uhhh, let's take a timeout there man. You made a VERY exaggerated example in an effort to make a point. You may not have agreed with my initial assertion but please don't try to compare it with marital infidelity. I mean really. It's two completely different things.

The fact you don't know anything about me but still feel like you can make a claim like the one above, is a bit disconcerting. But so be it.

Contracts make sense, but there is a logical ebb and flow to them. As a small business owner I take them very seriously, especially from a moral standpoint, what's right and fair. Most rationale people understand that situations do arise and extenuating circumstances do occur. It's my personal belief that owners/management of any kind shouldn't stand in the way of growth and opportunity of their employees. You can't take away another man's dream or block that because your ego is bruised. That's the idealistic side to my philosophy, the practical side questions just how much I have to gain by fighting this. Where is this relationship headed now? Where is the win for my organization? It's public, it's awkward, the team doesn't really stand to gain by trying to force Duquette to stay. You see this is no win all around!

Now having said that, I think (granted we're talking about a lot of speculation here) Angelos should fight for the best deal he can possibly garner. The Orioles need to profit from this in some respect. If the Blue Jays want Duquette make them pay for it!

I still stick to my earlier point, I really don't have a problem with Duquette if he does have an interest in the job if it has been offered to him. Life changes and I think we need to adapt with the changes that come at hand. What's important is trying to be fair for all the parties involved.

[berettafan]

. He's earned the right and it's just business. Contract or no contract.

It's depressing that people think this way.

[McLovin]

For the life of me I can't understand people knocking Dan because of an opportunity he might be interested in. Who among us wouldn't do the same? If there's someone here that would pass up a huge raise, a much larger stake in a company, and increased responsibility, speak up.

Anyone?

Me. I fend people off all of the time.

I have enough of each, and am loyal to the team that gave me my present opportunity.

[weams]

The multitude of ways in which contracts are eventually broken exisist because of the rigidity of philosophies like the one your putting forth.....ask Frank Wren :laughlol:

Frank Wren was part of the destruction of two franchises. He's an awful GM.

[SteveO]

Frank Wren was part of the destruction of two franchises. He's an awful GM.

He was god awful. Which has nothing to do with why he was brought up.

The point is that the Orioles tried to not pay his contract. Essentially because he was incompetent but the point was that its not like the O's are this bastion of morality where it comes to contracts. No team is.

[weams]

I've got no issue with DD having interest in the opportunity if it is as big of a step up as it originally appeared. I agree that people need to be granted opportunities to better themselves. I have never stood in the way of a promotion of an employee outside my department. However, I have never been materially damaged or had a situation where I had committed guaranteed money via a signed contract either. The employee was always going somewhere internal to the company so we were all on the same side.

This situation is different. DD would be going to a direct competitor. He is under long term contract. PGA is materially damaged if he leaves today. You allow for that when you say we need to be compensated so I think we are all on the same page. The problem is what do you do if the BJ are not willing to offer adequate compensation? This appears to be the issue to me. Now, you want to give DD the opportunity, but you can't do it and not leave yourself materially worse off.

Let's face it. This Ed Rogers guy did something really stupid. He went after something without first realizing the cost and agreeing to pay that cost. Now, it appears he isn't willing to pay the cost. That is just freaking wrong when the "something" was under contract to a competitor.

The proper way to do this would have been to reach out to PGA before anything was leaked and determine a compensation range IF DD was hired. That was step one in this sort of process. The way it has been done is just wrong on all levels.

Real good post.

[weams]

He was god awful. Which has nothing to do with why he was brought up.

The point is that the Orioles tried to not pay his contract. Essentially because he was incompetent but the point was that its not like the O's are this bastion of morality where it comes to contracts. No team is.

No, not at all. The Orioles have done stupid things. To me, morality is not part of this. Toronto is terrified that Ed Rogers will offer real compensation to resolve this and it has essentially been squashed from that side. Now it is for the Orioles to work through this from their point. I'd guess that this blows over pretty quickly now that MLB has backed off.

[SteveO]

No, not at all. The Orioles have done stupid things. To me, morality is not part of this. Toronto is terrified that Ed Rogers will offer real compensation to resolve this and it has essentially been squashed from that side. Now it is for the Orioles to work through this from their point. I'd guess that this blows over pretty quickly now that MLB has backed off.

I hope so to and hope that thing with or without DD get back to normal so we can enjoy what is going to be an exciting season.

[SteveO]

On a side note I think we can all agree that Ed Rogers is pretty lucky to have been born into a mega-rich family because his business acumen is practically nonexistent.

From a business standpoint I am not even sure they would let him on the short bus with a helmet.