MASN: Steve Meleswski with Brian Graham - We are absolutely one of the premier development systems

[Stotle]

This has already been alluded to, but why does it feel like Baltimore's system is getting credit for developing tradeable pieces (who were traded), but Boston's is being knocked strictly based on who's personally contributed to their ML roster? It doesn't seem like all the apples are being compared to other apples, IMO.

That's sort of what I was getting at but really only danced at the edges. Boston has traded away half its top 10 entering 2011 (per BA) including its top 3 prospects that year (Casey Kelly, Anthony Rizzo and Jose Iglesias). Iglesias got them Peavy, who threw meaningful innings as part of a World Series team. Kelly and Rizzo (along with Fuentes) got Boston Adrian Gonzalez and just under 10 bWAR over 282 games.

[CA-ORIOLE]

This has already been alluded to, but why does it feel like Baltimore's system is getting credit for developing tradeable pieces (who were traded), but Boston's is being knocked strictly based on who's personally contributed to their ML roster? It doesn't seem like all the apples are being compared to other apples, IMO.

I was mainly going back to a three year window (and Boston's poor record of ML player contributions) referring to many of the farm system and players that Boston had in place and that stotle was very high on at that time. That does not include guys like Lowrie and Reddick who were already gone. Lets not also forget that for a long time Boston ably gamed the system (probably better than anybody) by acquiring talent through mid to late term trades and allowing them to gain free agency.

[CA-ORIOLE]

1. Agreed -- Boston has had a strong system for a long time. Top half of baseball consistently and often times a top ten system, even top 5 (like right now).

2. The Red Sox haven't really promoted much internal talent at all over the last three years. They've traded guys for established major leaguers while continuing to develop from the lower levels (HS guys like Swihart, Cecchini, Betts, Owens, and college guys they've just taken their time with over the past four seasons, like Barnes and Johnson).

Middlebrooks had a nice debut, bad sophomore year, and wasn't really relied upon at all last year. JBJ hasn't been good offensively. At all. Agreed. Excellent defender that got passed by Betts on the depth chart (we can ignore Betts for now, though my guess is the hype of a player like Betts would be through the roof around here were he an Oriole). Mostly back-end guys and roll players, though, as far as players specifically promoted in the last three years (ignoring Betts).

3. You don't have a good grasp on the Lester issue -- he wasn't staying in Boston. Signing Panda/Ramirez had nothing to do with Middlebrooks/JBJ and everything to do with having money to spend. Cespedes/Betts/Castillo/Victorino and they still signed Ramirez to play an outfield corner. If you ask a Boston FO member I'm wagering they tell you their analytics department really likes Sandoval (curious where Cecchini ends up -- yet another MLB ready player by the way, and one who looked pretty good in his call-up last September).

You did clear up your post, so thank you. I disagree with your analysis, but whatever. I'm not trying to hype the Red Sox to you. Maybe they get nothing out of these kids...

Fair enough. Projecting prospects is not easy. Lets just say I'm less than impressed with the young talent Boston has been throwing out there the past few years. Not just positional talent but some pretty unimpressive pitchers. That said, Boston has a lot of financial resources.

Yes, I was fairly dense and uninformed to think that statements by Lester and Boston having mutual interest was nonsense. He and Theo must be tighter than I thought. I was thinking that if Middlebrooks was actually good then they might have had more money for Lester, not having to spend 90 million on a fat third baseman. I did not have inside information that Lester was going to join the Cubs no matter what Boston offered.

[Stotle]

I was mainly going back to a three year window (and Boston's poor record of ML player contributions) referring to many of the farm system and players that Boston had in place and that stotle was very high on at that time. That does not include guys like Lowrie and Reddick who were already gone. Lets not also forget that for a long time Boston ably gamed the system (probably better than anybody) by acquiring talent through mid to late term trades and allowing them to gain free agency.

A huge chunk of those guys are still in the system and are just making their way to the bigs now. Swihart, Owens, Barnes, Johnson, Cecchini, Betts, Bogaerts, JBJ were all acquired 2011/12; Bogaerts made his stateside debut in 2011. Reddick was traded right before the 2012 season but was no longer a prospect. Iglesias was a prospect in 2011/12 and was traded in 2013.

If I'm being called out for being high on a 2011/12 system that included all of those above guys, I'll gladly wear that.

[CA-ORIOLE]

A huge chunk of those guys are still in the system and are just making their way to the bigs now. Swihart, Owens, Barnes, Johnson, Cecchini, Betts, Bogaerts, JBJ were all acquired 2011/12; Bogaerts made his stateside debut in 2011. Reddick was traded right before the 2012 season but was no longer a prospect. Iglesias was a prospect in 2011/12 and was traded in 2013.

If I'm being called out for being high on a 2011/12 system that included all of those above guys, I'll gladly wear that.

Well I guess I don't really recall you stating circa 2012 that everybody good has now been traded and the farm system really isn't that good anymore. Just the opposite. Despite your assertations that Boston has not really needed to promote positional players, they were stuck with guys like Brock Holt, Middlebrooks, Bradley and Bogaerts filling significant roster time last year and stinking it up pretty bad. Not to mention a worse performance by their young cadre of pitchers.

Like I said, Boston is no longer able to game the system and load prospects like they did not too long ago.

Feel free to have the last word.

[Stotle]

Fair enough. Projecting prospects is not easy. Lets just say I'm less than impressed with the young talent Boston has been throwing out there the past few years. Not just positional talent but some pretty unimpressive pitchers. That said, Boston has a lot of financial resources.

Yes, I was fairly dense and uninformed to think that statements by Lester and Boston having mutual interest was nonsense. He and Theo must be tighter than I thought. I was thinking that if Middlebrooks was actually good then they might have had more money for Lester, not having to spend 90 million on a fat third baseman. I did not have inside information that Lester was going to join the Cubs no matter what Boston offered.

Boston could have signed Lester to a big deal prior to him reaching free agency but did not want to spend the money. By the time he reached free agency he was a Cub (I'd argue as soon as Boston failed to extend him in the spring he was likely no longer going to Boston, and the Cubs ending up a year ahead of schedule in the rebuild sealed the deal).

As noted above, Boston's current upcoming crop has been marinating in the minors for four years. Middlebrooks is the "big flop" out of the top prospects they've had. You can argue JBJ, too, if you think he's done. Boston traded a bunch of their other top prospects. I agree guys like Doubront, Webster, Workman, etc. haven't been anything special.

[Stotle]

Well I guess I don't really recall you stating circa 2012 that everybody good has now been traded and the farm system really isn't that good anymore. Just the opposite. Despite your assertations that Boston has not really needed to promote positional players, they were stuck with guys like Brock Holt, Middlebrooks, Bradley and Bogaerts filling significant roster time last year and stinking it up pretty bad. Not to mention a worse performance by their young cadre of pitchers.

Feel free to have the last word.

Sure thing.

1. I liked the farm system in 2012; the point is that a huge chunk of those guys I liked are still in the system and are just now reaching the major leagues. Along the way they have further traded pieces. If I had to guess what I said about the Sox circa 2012 it would be a lot of positive things about both upside and depth, and I don't think any of that is any less true today.

2. Re: 2014 team, coming off a World Series the FO was willing to roll the dice a more than they otherwise might. Didn't want to spend in 2013 and specifically wanted to spend in 2014 (which is why they didn't want to commit big money early to Lester). Bogaerts was a no brainer -- he needed the reps and got a year's worth of ABs at the major league level as a 20 year old. Middlebrooks was shaky entering the year. Cecchini wasn't ready. They used Drew as a "break glass in case of emergency" option and he didn't solve any problems. They gambled and lost re: 2014 production and I'm sure are comfortable with where they sit right now.

As I said, you're welcome to write-off Boston's developmental capabilities. I find it a bit myopic to do so, but that doesn't mean you won't be proven right.