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MASN: Steve Meleswski with Brian Graham - We are absolutely one of the premier development systems


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Oh please, take off the orange sunglasses. To me, an impact player is a Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera, Giancarlo Stanton. I realize these guys are special and don't come along every year, but every major league team has developed at least one superstar position player through their farm system in the last 30 years, except the O's and maybe the Cubs(and the Cubs farm system is loaded this year).

Can you really call Wieters, Markakis, Roberts etc. superstars? They're all above average hitters(in their prime), and Wieters is the only one w/even occasional power. All good players, but if that's the best you have since the Reagan administration, that's pretty bad. And with Wieters, we all expected Johnny Bench, or Carlton Fisk, or Mike Piazza when Matt came up and offensively he's fallen short of

expectations.

To me the jury's still out on Machado. He's good and could become great, but can't stay healthy. I hope he's not the second coming of Jeffrey Hammonds(another overhyped O's prospect)

I mostly agree that the article is hype. Still, in defense of the Orioles:

1. I don't think you judge an organization by 1 or 2 once-in-a-generation star players. At least, that is not the topic of this thread. Cabrera and Stanton are a case in point. Would you really say that the Marlins are an organizational model? To me the model is St. Louis. Yes, they produced Pujols but also (and more importantly) they have had a consistent pipeline of above average MLB talent, particularly pitchers.

2. Stanton's best WAR year was 6.5 last year. Manny Machado has already put up 6.4 in his first full year. Curt Schilling has two years of 8+ WAR and six years of 6+ WAR (unfortunately we traded him--does that prove your point?). Mussina's numbers were not far behind Schilling's. We have produced our share of elite guys. Cabrera has put up 59 WAR for his career but still has a ways to go to catch both Mussina and Schilling.

3. I really doubt you can find players significantly better than Machado, Mussina, or Schilling for every single team besides the O's and Cubs.

4. Your arbitrary cutoff date of 30 years is deliberately meant to exclude Cal, but the team was built around him through the 90s and the man put up 95 wins singlehandedly. If we only get one Cal every 40 years I am fine with that.

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If your standard is Stanton, Cabrera, and Trout then more than half the league hasn't developed an impact hitter. Derek Jeter isn't that level of hitter so the Yankees are out. David Wright isn't at that level and he is the best hitter the Mets have developed in 30 years. The Red Sox are definitely out, the best hitter they have developed in 30 years is probably Kevin Youkilis.

Every team has developed an impact position player in the last 30 years, except the O's and Cubs. Now I admit Cabrera, Stanton, and Trout are superstars, but I'm also talking about players at the next level, and even those who have had a few great seasons then have tailed off. You mentioned Derek Jeter, but I'd also say Robinson Cano is a helluva lot better than any player developed by the O's, as well as Bernie Williams.

Obviously those guys aren't on the level of the big three(Trout, Stanton, and Cabrera) but I'd take either of those players(in their prime) over Markakis any day.Plus the Yankees also drafted Jay Buhner but foolishly traded him for Ken Phelps. But at least they had the sense to draft him in the first place. The Red Sox? Dustin Pedroia anyone? Again he may not be great every year, but he's been able to put up MVP numbers over an entire season. Can you say that about any O's prospect?

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Before Trout the best position player that the Angels developed was probably Tim Salmon. The Giants haven't developed a great hitter in your time frame, nor have the Padres. The Red Sox haven't developed anybody in the last 30 years that meets your standard either.

I'd give the Angels Jim Edmunds. Can't think of any Blue Jay or Red.

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I'd give the Angels Jim Edmunds. Can't think of any Blue Jay or Red.

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Carlos Delgado? Jesse Barfield? Joey Votto? Barry Larkin? Possibly Jay Bruce although that might be a stretch.

BTW I forgot to mention the Yankees great players they've developed, I also include international FA's like Alfonso Soriano. The Yanks were responsible for bringing him into the league

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Oh please, take off the orange sunglasses. To me, an impact player is a Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera, Giancarlo Stanton.

Those are not impact players. Those are potential HOF'er. The first 300 million dollar contract, someone who will make 300 million, and should make 350. Ridiculous that you pick the best three hitters of two generations as your benchmarks. And I hope Stanton does not go all Paul Blair.

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Carlos Delgado? Jesse Barfield? Joey Votto? Barry Larkin? Possibly Jay Bruce although that might be a stretch.

BTW I forgot to mention the Yankees great players they've developed, I also include international FA's like Alfonso Soriano. The Yanks were responsible for bringing him into the league

By Red he meant the Red Sox.

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Carlos Delgado? Jesse Barfield? Joey Votto? Barry Larkin? Possibly Jay Bruce although that might be a stretch.

BTW I forgot to mention the Yankees great players they've developed, I also include international FA's like Alfonso Soriano. The Yanks were responsible for bringing him into the league

They are all a stretch. Including Soriano and Delgado, PED era choices. Votto quite possible owns the worst contract for a team since AROD two. Larkin was great. Jay Bruce is Luke Scott in his prime right now.
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I think that development goes way beyond the 10 "can't miss" prospect that miss half the time. I think development goes to a Tim Berry level.

What players at the "Tim Berry" level have we drafted and developed into everyday major league players?

Over the last seven years of drafting and development, the Orioles have produced:

1 x All Star (Machado 3rd overall pick)

1 x everyday players or starter (Gausman 4th overall pick), 2 if you add in Jonathan Schoop who was developed but not drafted (career .605 OPS in 492 PAs)

3 x backup players

2 x cup of coffee players

The comments made in this article remind me of this guy:

244b992a4753d38ed947da0b5ec98738219747fa9c33f24e64bc34f6dd550ccd.jpg

:D

The Orioles do have some good excellent coaches in the minor leagues and Buck, Dan and Brady are quality baseball men who are trying to enact change, but to say they are one of the premiere drafting and development organizations is bit of an over statement in my opinion.

I don't have the time, but if someone could do a total WAR produced between players drafted and developed since 2008 by the Orioles and the Cardinals, I think it should prove the point. If you want to go back to 2005 and add in Wieters and Britton I think it still will be heavily in favor of organizations like the Cardinals, Giants and Tampa.

2008 Draft:

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 3 (Matusz, Joseph, Hoes - used in Norris trade)

Cup of coffee - 2 (Avery, Hudson)

Still a top-30 prospect: - 4 (Bundy, Davies, Wilson, Wright)

2009 Draft:

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: - 1 (Givens)

2010 Draft:

Major League All Stars players: 1 - Manny Machado (3rd overall pick in the draft)

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: 1

2011 Draft:

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: - 4 (Bundy, Davies, Wilson, Wright)

2012

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 1 (Gausman 4th overall pick)

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: - 3 (Marin, Walker, Hader - used for Norris trade)

2013

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: - 4 (Bundy, Davies, Wilson, Wright)

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Every team has developed an impact position player in the last 30 years, except the O's and Cubs. Now I admit Cabrera, Stanton, and Trout are superstars, but I'm also talking about players at the next level, and even those who have had a few great seasons then have tailed off. You mentioned Derek Jeter, but I'd also say Robinson Cano is a helluva lot better than any player developed by the O's, as well as Bernie Williams.

Obviously those guys aren't on the level of the big three(Trout, Stanton, and Cabrera) but I'd take either of those players(in their prime) over Markakis any day.Plus the Yankees also drafted Jay Buhner but foolishly traded him for Ken Phelps. But at least they had the sense to draft him in the first place. The Red Sox? Dustin Pedroia anyone? Again he may not be great every year, but he's been able to put up MVP numbers over an entire season. Can you say that about any O's prospect?

The Orioles have had a horrible organization for 15 out of the last 25 years. A joke. From top to bottom. No longer. And not before.

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What players at the "Tim Berry" level have we drafted and developed into everyday major league players?

Over the last seven years of drafting and development, the Orioles have produced:

1 x All Star (Machado 3rd overall pick)

1 x everyday players or starter (Gausman 4th overall pick), 2 if you add in Jonathan Schoop who was developed but not drafted (career .605 OPS in 492 PAs)

3 x backup players

2 x cup of coffee players

The comments made in this article remind me of this guy:

244b992a4753d38ed947da0b5ec98738219747fa9c33f24e64bc34f6dd550ccd.jpg

:D

The Orioles do have some good excellent coaches in the minor leagues and Buck, Dan and Brady are quality baseball men who are trying to enact change, but to say they are one of the premiere drafting and development organizations is bit of an over statement in my opinion.

I don't have the time, but if someone could do a total WAR produced between players drafted and developed since 2008 by the Orioles and the Cardinals, I think it should prove the point. If you want to go back to 2005 and add in Wieters and Britton I think it still will be heavily in favor of organizations like the Cardinals, Giants and Tampa.

2008 Draft:

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 3 (Matusz, Joseph, Hoes - used in Norris trade)

Cup of coffee - 2 (Avery, Hudson)

Still a top-30 prospect: - 4 (Bundy, Davies, Wilson, Wright)

2009 Draft:

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: - 1 (Givens)

2010 Draft:

Major League All Stars players: 1 - Manny Machado (3rd overall pick in the draft)

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: 1

2011 Draft:

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: - 4 (Bundy, Davies, Wilson, Wright)

2012

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 1 (Gausman 4th overall pick)

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: - 3 (Marin, Walker, Hader - used for Norris trade)

2013

Major League All Stars players: - 0

Major League Regular players - 0

Major League part-time players - 0

Still a top-30 prospect: - 4 (Bundy, Davies, Wilson, Wright)

Points taken. Joe Jordan was just on MLBTV.

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They are all a stretch. Including Soriano and Delgado, PED era choices. Votto quite possible owns the worst contract for a team since AROD two. Larkin was great. Jay Bruce is Luke Scott in his prime right now.

Put Votto's, Pedroia's, Delgado's, Bruce's best seasons up against the best seasons from Markakis or Roberts. Not even close. And I don't recall was Soriano, or Delgado ever busted for PED's? Or are you making that assumption because they're Latin players who played in that era?

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Put Votto's, Pedroia's, Delgado's, Bruce's best seasons up against the best seasons from Markakis or Roberts. Not even close. And I don't recall was Soriano, or Delgado ever busted for PED's? Or are you making that assumption because they're Latin players who played in that era?

I agree with your first statement. I have no issue with latin players. I believe that 70 percent of PED ERA players were involved in performance enhancement. Therefore I do not compare their numbers with non PED ERA players. I Do also give the Yankee/Toronto swipe at any PED ERA players that attended. Universally.

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