Thirty years on...

[RShack]

I'd argue more that it was broken and then those who followed either failed to care enough (Jacobs) or didn't figure out the right way to fix it (Angelos), at least until recent years.

With Jacobs, it's kinda hard to tell about how much he cared. All we know for sure is that he was too broke to do anything. AFAIK, the only good thing about him is that he pushed to make OPACY old-timey and quirky. They had to get special exemptions from MLB to make OPACY the way they did. RF is the way it is because of what Jacobs remembered from Ebbetts field. Other than that, he was bad about fixing anything. But was it not caring or just being broke? I don't know how to tell. I don't know if anybody does.

[Mad Mark]

I agree, but it still seems like you are trying to steer blame away from Angelos.

The O's were in-deed broken when Angelos took the team over, but he had more resources (new stadium, better TV deals, improved attendance) to improve the organization. He didn't. Plus, he was a Baltimore guy who loved the city, the team, and the fans.

It all looked good from the start.

It's like bringing in Donald Trump to fix an ailing company. And when he fails to do it, it looks even worse than before. IMO, what happened with the O's before Angelos became owner really doesn't matter. Within 5 years he should have improved things. He did, kind of.

But then it went bad.

So Angelos is to blame more than EBW, IMO for those reasons.

Sean:

The major flaw in your argument is that it concentrates on the Major League team, while ignoring what was going on in the Minors. Angelos might have gotten away with a free-agency based strategy--for a while, anyway--if Steinbrenner's "lifetime ban from baseball" had lasted for more than half an hour. As it was, Gene Michael was able to put together the Yankee$ class of 1996 (Jeter, et al), Jeffrey Mayer stole the 1996 ALCS, and all of a sudden, the endle$$ $tream of ca$h that runs through the Bronx was five times as deep and no one, not Peter Angelos, not Elvis, not Jesus, no one was ever going to be able to out-spend the Yankee$ ever again.

Again, I'll return to the house metaphor: EBW planned for and Eli Jacobs built a really nice addition (Camden Yards) to the Orioles casa, but failed to do anything about a basement that was flooding, and eating away at the house's foundation.

[TonySoprano]

Exactly.

The only good thing on Hank Peter's entire resume is the years when the farm system was still showing the effects of Jerry Hoffberger's ownership.

After Hoffberger, it took some time for the subsequent carnage to ruin the big-league club.

Except for the Hoffberger years, and the guys who trickled up from them (like Cal), Hank Peters' resume is terrible.

Peters' resume' started five years before Williams took over as owner. I have already noted that Williams' mistake was over-reliance on Peters. The buck does stop on Williams' desk, but it has Peters' fingerprints all over it. However, in EBW's defense, Peters was kept after five years under Hoffberger, and Williams may have wanted to continue what had appeared was working (e.g. A.L. Championship in 1979).

EBW didn't have to build a single thing about the farm system. It was *already built*.

I have already noted, twice, that the pipeline from the farm system that he inherited wasn't nearly as rich as you want to argue. But then, what really is your argument? Explain to me how the farm system was *already built* when in your own words you also conversely say "Hank Peters' resume is terrible." Those two things aren't contradictory?

Peters had full reign over who to draft and not to draft. You want to make the case that Peters did O.K. in that department under Hoffberger and only converted to a failure upon Williams' arrival, despite the fact that Williams was a hands-off owner for the first four years, as had been Hoffberger. It's a damn lucky thing for Peters that Cal,Sr. had a son who turned into a hall of famer, because if it wasn't for Senior, Peters may never have drafted Cal Jr.

[Mad Mark]

Why did Jack Kent Cooke Stadium (now FedEx Field) get built in Largo, instead of the RFK parking lots? Because JKC was dying, and didn't have time to eff around with the corrupt banana republic that is the District of Columbia, and he was getting NIMBY'd to distraction in Northern Virginia and Silver Spring.

Why did Edward Bennett Williams go free-agent crazy, trying to buy a win at the Major League level, while ignoring enormous problems at the Minor League level? Because he was dying, and wanted his legacy to be a World Series trophy. Hell of a lot more visible than an epitaph that reads "he fixed what most of you didn't know was broken."

[66-70-83-??]

Williams held the city hostage after the Colts left, mostly because Schaffer had his pride wounded and didn't want it further damaged. He used the support from DC as a weapon to suggest that the team should move closer to the District as a true regional team (Angelos has nothing on him in that regard).

EBW never threatened to move the Orioles to DC. He did fight for a new stadium and would only sign short-term leases at Memorial.

EBW was a Marylander. He wasn't looking to be public enemy #1. There was no way he was going to move the team from Baltimore to DC. DC had already lost two baseball teams. It wasnt ripe for a third one. Besides, MLB would have blocked such a move.

That would be like Warren Buffet buying the Cards and moving them to Omaha. Balto was a much better baseball town than DC.

If not for EBW, there would be no OPACY and probably no baseball in Baltimore. If the Orioles didnt get OPACY it is quite possible that the team would have been sold and moved by a new owner.

[Mad Mark]

So, is it now the groups' consensus that the rot set in before 1978? Or does that still work as a point where we can say the ship began to go off course?

[TonySoprano]

So, is it now the groups' consensus that the rot set in before 1978? Or does that still work as a point where we can say the ship began to go off course?

Speaking for myself, not the group, what got broken, started during the last few years of Hoffberger's watch, with Peters steering the ship.

[RShack]

You want to make the case that Peters did O.K. in that department under Hoffberger and only converted to a failure upon Williams' arrival, despite the fact that Williams was a hands-off owner for the first four years, as had been Hoffberger. It's a damn lucky thing for Peters that Cal,Sr. had a son who turned into a hall of famer, because if it wasn't for Senior, Peters may never have drafted Cal Jr.

I want to simply acknowledge that the record clearly shows that the Baltimore Orioles got ruined under the ownership of EBW. I don't know why you insist on making excuses for the guy. He's the owner who bought THE BEST franchise in baseball and left us with a thoroughly crappy organization, and he's the guy who set the precedent of meddling owners. Before him, the Orioles never had one, ever. Before EBW the Orioles owners undertook their ownership as a civic responsibility (plus, they wanted to sell beer). They took the eternally-crappy St. Louis Browns and turned it into THE BEST organization in baseball. That continued until EBW decided to screw things up. The things quoted in your posts *show* that he decided to meddle, that he didn't want to do things the right way.

If you want to pin it on Peters, then you're saying it's *not* the owner's fault for what happened on his watch. Plus, you're saying that it took 9 years after Peters for the organization to suck, and you're also trying to shift the blame from EBW to Hoffberger, who *everybody* (including the record books) say was a great owner. I don't believe any of those things, and I don't understand why you keep trying to argue that EBW was not a terrible owner. He was a terrible owner. He took THE BEST franchise in baseball and he ruined it.

Somehow you're in love with the guy and I don't know why. You try to make it sound like he had to *convince* Willie Don Schaeffer to keep the team in the City. That's crazy. Schaeffer was *married* to the City, and would have done *anything* to keep them in the City. But somehow you try to spin it like EBW had to talk him into it. You keep trying to make up excuses to let EBW off the hook for the crappy job he did as owner. When I ask you why, you say you're tired of the little jokes about it. So, here's my last little joke: Is it because you have a Mafia handle and EBW was a Mafia lawyer? If not, then why oh why do you keep trying to shift the blame elsewhere? First you wanna blame it on cancer. Now, you wanna blame it on Hoffberger, who everybody-but-you says was a perfectly great owner. Good luck with that.

Face it, EBW sucked as an owner. Then he died. From the standpoint of the Baltimore Orioles, the only good news in that story is that he's dead.

[66-70-83-??]

I want to simply acknowledge that the record clearly shows that the Baltimore Orioles got ruined under the ownership of EBW. I don't know why you insist on making excuses for the guy. He's the owner who bought THE BEST franchise in baseball and left us with a thoroughly crappy organization, and he's the guy who set the precedent of meddling owners. Before him, the Orioles never had one, ever. Before EBW the Orioles owners undertook their ownership as a civic responsibility (plus, they wanted to sell beer). They took the eternally-crappy St. Louis Browns and turned it into THE BEST organization in baseball. That continued until EBW decided to screw things up. The things quoted in your posts *show* that he decided to meddle, that he didn't want to do things the right way.

If you want to pin it on Peters, then you're saying it's *not* the owner's fault for what happened on his watch. Plus, you're saying that it took 9 years after Peters for the organization to suck, and you're also trying to shift the blame from EBW to Hoffberger, who *everybody* (including the record books) say was a great owner. I don't believe any of those things, and I don't understand why you keep trying to argue that EBW was not a terrible owner. He was a terrible owner. He took THE BEST franchise in baseball and he ruined it.

Somehow you're in love with the guy and I don't know why. You try to make it sound like he had to *convince* Willie Don Schaeffer to keep the team in the City. That's crazy. Schaeffer was *married* to the City, and would have done *anything* to keep them in the City. But somehow you try to spin it like EBW had to talk him into it. You keep trying to make up excuses to let EBW off the hook for the crappy job he did as owner. When I ask you why, you say you're tired of the little jokes about it. So, here's my last little joke: Is it because you have a Mafia handle and EBW was a Mafia lawyer? If not, then why oh why do you keep trying to shift the blame elsewhere? First you wanna blame it on cancer. Now, you wanna blame it on Hoffberger, who everybody-but-you says was a perfectly great owner. Good luck with that.

Face it, EBW sucked as an owner. Then he died. From the standpoint of the Baltimore Orioles, the only good news in that story is that he's dead.

There are a couple of other little things that likely wouldn't have happened if not for EBW owning the Orioles:

OPACY gets built.

Orioles still play home games in Baltimore.

[TonySoprano]

Shack, instead of asking questions, how about answering some of mine that I have already asked first?

How did Peters become a lousy GM under Williams' watch but was just fine for five years under Hoffberger?

"If you want to pin it on Peters, then you're saying it's *not* the owner's fault for what happened on his watch."

Quite clearly, more than once, I have already conceded that Williams mistake was hanging on to Hoffberger's GM for as long as he did. I know Hoffberger's a legend here, and rightfully so. However, that doesn't mean he was infallible, specifically in the case of Hank Peters.

What I know is there are people in the Baltimore area have a raging hard-on against anything from D.C. Williams was from the D.C. area (as I was) so by definition he must be a bad guy, facts be damned, case dismissed. It has nothing at all to do with this mafia red herring that you continue to leave rotting at my door. (Get some new material will you please?)

Williams was a lousy owner even though he got plans for a new ballpark started, increased attendance, and expanded Baltimore's market into the D.C. area. However, Williams was from D.C., so he must be burning in hell right now.

[RShack]

Shack, instead of asking questions, how about answering some of mine that I have already asked first?

How did Peters become a lousy GM under Williams' watch but was just fine for five years under Hoffberger?

Because he went from working for an owner who emphasized the right priorities to working for one who emphasized the wrong priorities.

That's how it is with borderline guys: they can do OK under good leadership and crappy under bad leadership. You could say the same thing about John Lowenstein.

What I know is there are people in the Baltimore area have a raging hard-on against anything from D.C. Williams was from the D.C. area (as I was) so by definition he must be a bad guy, facts be damned, case dismissed.

I don't care where he's from. Doesn't matter where he's from. Being from DC has nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned.

AFAIK, the only difference his DC-ties made was that he wanted to put the new ballpark outside the City on the DC side... until Schaeffer told him he'd get the whole thing paid for as long as it was in the City.

I don't know why you give EBW credit for attendance getting better. What did he do that was so special to improve attendance? AFAIK, that happened mainly because Irsay ruined the Colts and then snuck them out of town in the middle of the night, so the O's were the only team left and everybody rallied around the O's. What's that got to do with EBW?

[TonySoprano]

Because he went from working for an owner who emphasized the right priorities to working for one who emphasized the wrong priorities.

I'm not buying that one bit. Peters, by his own admission, did not have Williams intervene until after the 1983 season.

AFAIK, the only difference his DC-ties made was that he wanted to put the new ballpark outside the City on the DC side... until Schaeffer told him he'd get the whole thing paid for as long as it was in the City.

The big point that you keep dismissing is that there wouldn't have been a new stadium at all if it was up to Schaeffer. It took Williams to get the ball rolling.

I don't know why you give EBW credit for attendance getting better.

Not only do I give him credit but so does Frank Cashen, who may just know more about the subject than you or me;)

[SteveA]

I want to simply acknowledge that the record clearly shows that the Baltimore Orioles got ruined under the ownership of EBW. I don't know why you insist on making excuses for the guy. He's the owner who bought THE BEST franchise in baseball and left us with a thoroughly crappy organization, and he's the guy who set the precedent of meddling owners. Before him, the Orioles never had one, ever. Before EBW the Orioles owners undertook their ownership as a civic responsibility (plus, they wanted to sell beer). They took the eternally-crappy St. Louis Browns and turned it into THE BEST organization in baseball. That continued until EBW decided to screw things up. The things quoted in your posts *show* that he decided to meddle, that he didn't want to do things the right way.

If you want to pin it on Peters, then you're saying it's *not* the owner's fault for what happened on his watch. Plus, you're saying that it took 9 years after Peters for the organization to suck, and you're also trying to shift the blame from EBW to Hoffberger, who *everybody* (including the record books) say was a great owner. I don't believe any of those things, and I don't understand why you keep trying to argue that EBW was not a terrible owner. He was a terrible owner. He took THE BEST franchise in baseball and he ruined it.

Somehow you're in love with the guy and I don't know why. You try to make it sound like he had to *convince* Willie Don Schaeffer to keep the team in the City. That's crazy. Schaeffer was *married* to the City, and would have done *anything* to keep them in the City. But somehow you try to spin it like EBW had to talk him into it. You keep trying to make up excuses to let EBW off the hook for the crappy job he did as owner. When I ask you why, you say you're tired of the little jokes about it. So, here's my last little joke: Is it because you have a Mafia handle and EBW was a Mafia lawyer? If not, then why oh why do you keep trying to shift the blame elsewhere? First you wanna blame it on cancer. Now, you wanna blame it on Hoffberger, who everybody-but-you says was a perfectly great owner. Good luck with that.

Face it, EBW sucked as an owner. Then he died. From the standpoint of the Baltimore Orioles, the only good news in that story is that he's dead.

All well and good. But no franchise is unfixable. A new owner hires his own people and they are TOTALLY responsible for the state of the franchise 7 or 8 years later. In previous iterations of this argument, you have tried to blame EBW for the current state of this franchise. And that is just not the case. Every player ever drafted under his regime has lretired from baseball. Every key baseball position in the organization has been refilled multiple times since he left; the only employees left from his time are in positions that have little impact on the team put on the field (ushers, vendors, ticket people, etc).

Every player in our organization was drafted or acquired by someone that Peter Angelos hired. Every one. So NO OWNER BUT ANGELOS is responsible for our bad farm system. Yes, it first went bad under EBW. No argument there. But the fact that it was bad in 1987 has NO EFFECT on it being bad now.

Other posts in this thread made the comparison to a car. EBW broke the car and Angelos hasn't fixed it. That isn't a good analogy because by its nature, with personnel moving through it, a farm system will completely replenish itself after 6 or 7 years. An organization will pretty much completely replenish itself in a decade or 12 years; maybe there will be one Ripken who stays in an organization for more than a dozen years, but they are rare. So it's not like a car, that will stay broke if you don't fix it. A farm system is constantly replenished by players each year, and old ones get pushed out, so certainly after a decade, if a system is bad it is ONLY because of the owner who has owned the team for the past 12+ years. The fact that EBW was the first person to ruin the farm system is completely irrelevant to the situation we are in today.

[RShack]

I'm not buying that one bit. Peters, by his own admission, did not have Williams intervene until after the 1983 season.

Yep, "by his own admission", Peters was more than happy to take credit for the '83 WS team and only blame EBW for what happened after that.

So, then, we're in agreement that destroying the franchise was EBW's fault, we're only disagreeing about the year. Right? Or are you still saying it's Hoffberger's fault?

The big point that you keep dismissing is that there wouldn't have been a new stadium at all if it was up to Schaeffer. It took Williams to get the ball rolling.

If by "get the ball rolling" you mean blackmailing the City by threatening to move to team out of town, to get the team closer to DC, then you are absolutely correct. That's one thing Hoffberger never did: He never blackmailed the City and threatened to move the team unless he got a new stadium for free. Silly Hoffberger, he should've been an extortionist like EBW was. Put it all on the taxpayer's dime, it was a very cost-effective move.

However, IIRC, the fans didn't want a new stadium downtown. The fans liked watching ballgames at Memorial Stadium just fine. What the fans wanted was some more restrooms at Memorial Stadium. IIRC, the fans teared-up when the days at Memorial Stadium came to and end. The fans didn't demand a new stadium, but we got one because of EBW's extortion threats. Now, I agree completely that OPACY turned out great. That was due to a combination of things: EBW's blackmail, Schaeffer's skill at finding the money to buy his "loyalty" with a free new stadium, and Jacob's insistence on making it old-timey and quirky. It turned out great. Schaeffer provided the money, Jacobs provided the vision, and EBW provided the extortion. In that sense, it was a very team effort.

As for the attendance, please tell me what EBW did that was so brilliant. I don't know because I wasn't there. All I know is what friends and family told me, and what they said was the Irsay ruined the Colts and then stole them, and every rotten thing he did helped people switch allegience from the Colts to the Orioles. In the end, the Orioles were all that people had left, so they turned their allegiance to the Orioles. But, evidently, that's all wrong. Evidently it had very little to do with that, right? Evidently, it was just a coincidence that that's when it happened. Evidently, all credit goes to EBW, right? So, exactly what did EBW to increase attendence? If it wasn't about people shifting their passion from the Colts to the Orioles, what was it? And how did EBW do it? By what masterstroke did he turn a football-town into a baseball-town?

[TonySoprano]

So, then, we're in agreement that destroying the franchise was EBW's fault, we're only disagreeing about the year. Right? Or are you still saying it's Hoffberger's fault?

I've consistently said it was Peters' fault. Hoffberger had him for five years, Williams for seven, both made a mistake.